Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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isoaker
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Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by isoaker » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:45 am

Time to try to get a little more done than what's been accomplished so far, but in order to do so, we need the help of a few (or more) water warfare groups willing to use part of their water warfare time to try out things.

If you lead or are part of a water warfare team and are interested in helping bring forth a brighter future for organized water warfare, please post in this thread your desire to help.

More details to be made available to interested members/teams.

:cool:
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by HBWW » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:32 am

"Help..." such a generic word. =p Really though, I'd need some more info on this; do you just need pics? More stories? If its reasonable (i.e. not traveling miles to a water war or to pick up someone's 2000), I can probably help out. I finally scheduled our season opener which is to take place in the middle of next week. If theres something I can do, let me know.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:03 pm

I'd be happy to help, provided I know what kind of help I'd be giving. I could take pics. I could make some videos. I could organize wars and write about them. With respect to our many members here in Ontario, if a war was planned in Toronto, where Ontario members travel to Toronto as a central meeting spot, I could scout out nice places for battles or give directions to participants (I live in Toronto).
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by isoaker » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:11 pm

Ah, yes, "Help" is an all-too-vague term.

Well, I suppose it is best to be as transparent with this endeavor, anyhow. Basically, what I'd really like to do is to have teams try out some particular organized water warfare rule sets and give feedback on how the rules actually worked out after actually trying them out. Water warfare time and feedback is what I'm hoping for from willing groups. In terms of what rule-sets would be tried, that is something that I'd like to discuss with those willing to participate in this project. IMO, in order to get a little close to actually having a more global water warfare league, I'd still like to have a good working set of rules to start with.

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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by teamfear » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:05 pm

I might be able to try out some new rules when I have free time.

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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by NYwRiter94 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:16 pm

I could help if you need it. I'm working on setting a team up and I was planning on trying out Ridgewood's Ruleset, but I can try some others if you'd like.

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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:19 pm

The other stable member of my team and I will test out a best of seven OHK this weekend. Will post feedback and battle story.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by Croc » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:29 pm

I'd be willing to help with trying this out.

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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by HBWW » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:07 pm

So back to Major League planning, aren't we? An honor system doesn't seem as appropriate for leagues, but thats where refs come in. Still, we want a quick method of players determining whether they're hit or not but the quickest methods depend on the honor system. Still, my ruleset remains as posted on http://hbww.fateback.com/HBrules.html#rules2

There are 3 primary variables to rules:

First being the basic rules like what kind of water you're allowed to use, being unable to disturb neighbors, rules against leaving the battlefield borders (i.e. no action outside the borders will count, or worse, players who leave are eliminated or must respawn, depending on the 3rd variable) For sake of convinience, this should be ignored for the most part, until a standard league set of rules is created here. This set should never change once established (unless there is something wrong with it)

Second is the rules regarding hits. Fist sized solid splotch? 10 droplets? Or soakfest? The soakfest can also be modified a bit; i.e. no charging into streams.

Third is objectives. Elimination, CTF, points, etc. are all objective modes to play.

Elimination or respawn can either be put in the second or third category, but I prefer putting it in the third since the objective has a direct impact on it. The second category stands alone and will probably be standardized later.

So lets say we already decided the league rules. (and that they're set perfectly as we can get them to be) The first and second are standardized and universal and do not change, and the third can change to maybe 3 or 5 configurations. If the league was treated more like a video game, first and second rulesets could also change to adapt to different environments.

That said, I also have standardized first and second rules. The first is pretty typical; be careful w/ blasters, don't piss in the reservoir to fill, etc. The second is the approx. 10 droplet rule, a "significant amount of water." Very loosely defined, I know, but everyone gets the idea pretty easily. Basically, if you're hit beyond mere mist or 1 or 2 droplets, you're out. If a water balloon splatters on a wall right next to you and you're standing against the wall, you're out as well. We also go by the "no charging into streams" rule for soakfests. For respawn, there is no time limit right now, all you have to do is hit the respawn point. We may also consider a 15 second freeze much like in laser tag. (though in laser tag, you can still move whilst eliminated)

I'll make a quick list of different ways to do this, just for reference:
- Low hit / ~10 droplets (honor based)
- Fist sized splotch
- Gridded T-shirt
- Soaker Tags / Paper (i.e. printer, towel, or toilet papers) + clothspin
- Those overpriced electronic sensors you can find online. (that come in sets of 2 and with crappy piston guns)

For the third set, I have 3 soakfest variations: Team soakfest, Soakfest CTF (flag carrier must drop if hit according to hit rule), and the new one I'm trying out soon, zombies. Originally, zombies could only use water bottles, but I changed it to allow the alpha (starting) zombie to use the Oozinator. I may allow other zombies who are eliminated later to use squirt guns and cheap piston guns as well but if I do, I'll definately apply the stricter soakfest rule.

There are also a few 1 hit kill variations we have played, including elimination and CTF respawn. (elimination CTF probably won't work) Eventually, we will also do assault type games such as soak and destroy, and 1-flag CTF, which can either be respawn based or elimination. Either way, a time limit will be needed. We have not played any points games yet due to the difficulty of tracking kills, but its possible that we may have players mark a sheet when spawning in respawn games to track overall team kill scores. (we could play a time or score limit run team soakmatch this way)

Theres another game floating around; conquest. There are several control points on the map which also act as spawn points for the team that captures them. However, this may be too complicated to run without overly simplifying the capture process. Its supposed to take time to take control of a point, but is obviously hard to get players to count. (you need some kind of hand-crank machine or whatever) Perhaps different games can be derived from this, such as trying to grab the point markers and taking them back to base. (kind of like a muiti-flag CTF except no one owns any of the "flags")

So what it comes down to is what I'd consider standardizing for the official rules. Games like zombies are obviously just for fun and I never even got to try it yet. However, games like elimination would have to be standardized, and at least 2-flag CTF should be part of the official ruleset as well. I haven't tried any 1-flag CTF nor soak and destroy, but I may pull those games up at next week's war and will definately tell how they go if I run them. For now, a good small list would have those.


That said, which specific combinations of second and third categories would you have us try? I'll be running new games either way, them being zombies and the assault games, but if you've got some, I'll try them out. I'm not sure if we can get "soakertags" (in quotes because the best I can do is print out soakertags from the computer) going, and I might have to stick to our rules for the second category, but I'll see what I can do.

Edit: I just did some testing on toilet paper targets. They get blasted out quickly by the Max-D 2000 and 3000's from about 5-10 ft away or so, and should make good general purpose targets. However, the targets will also weaken if the user does barrel rolls or whatever other stunts, may be more difficult to place on the back if someone has a backpack, and will be weakened by water from bad refilling technique. (which I'd say isn't unfair but others may disagree) The rule here is that the person is eliminated if nothing is left on the clothspin, meaning that all traces of paper must be blasted away. Unfortunately, this may require a ref in order to work since players cannot directly see their targets. At the least, it requires the honesty of both players who are fighting to call out when their targets are gone. Still, this may be a better system overall than what I use and doesn't discourage CQB as much. (players must get in closer ranges to attack paper targets, rather than merely spewing water droplets at each other from far away)
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:07 pm

Battle Story: June 21st, 2009

We wound up doing best of five instead of seven.

1v1 OHK Best of Five Rounds

Me: XP 270
Bob (real name withheld by request): XP 270

Round 1

I guess this wasn’t really that fair because I ran to the high ground (an elevated front yard) while Bob was filling. Any ways, this was the shortest round. He couldn’t find me, though I was only feet from him, behind a bush, and then I shot him. 1-0

Round 2

As we play on the streets, skill is defined by speed and accuracy, not stealth and hiding. After a few minutes of cat and mouse, and a few missed shots from both sides, I charged Bob while evading his inaccurate shots and easily hit him after about three shots out of my XP 270. 2-0

Round 3

This one took awhile. I crept behind Bob’s house and stayed there for at least five minutes. When I heard him coming, I accidentally jumped and blew my cover. Bob is a slower runner than me, but I was wearing crocs compared to his Nikes. After being chased around the neighbourhood for what seemed like forever by a guy with a water gun (people turned and stared, much to our embarrassment), I was finally hit by one tiny speckle of water. 2-1

Round 4

Immediately after refilling (both of us did), I ran as fast as I could and, when he wasn’t looking, ducked behind a neighbour’s bush for cover. I eventually made my way behind an enormous SUV. I could see him turning his head in different directions, looking for me, through the windows of the car. I waited for a few minutes, and then he started wandering towards the SUV. I jumped out, pulled and held the trigger for the entire shot time of my blaster. 3-1 win for steelboot!

Thoughts:

I didn’t particularly enjoy this war. It did pressure Bob and me to use cover more efficiently, but I find OHK isn’t too good in open places. It would be much more exciting playing in a forest, where you can’t see your opponent, where every step you take is a risk, where you always have to keep your head up. So, by the end of the summer, I plan to organize an OHK game in a forest or creek. Much more exciting. For now though, I think I’ll stick to soakfests.
Water Warrior for three summers and counting.
Was captain of a team, but team disbanded due to lack of interest.
Still love soakers.
SOAK AND DESTROY = BEST GAME EVER

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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by Silence » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:32 pm

Hmm, I've never had a battle with identical guns. Some diversity is probably nice, but this must've been perfectly balanced.

Hopefully you can get some more people involved, too. I do need to work on that myself, but I've found that even one extra person can make things more fun. Four or six is ideal, in my experience.

How far off is the nearest patch of forest?

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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:37 pm

Bob usually uses his 1500, but he agreed to use a 270 for some diversity. Of course, when we're both using the same soaker, skill level comes more into play (hence my victory lol). We have some neighbours that get into it sometimes, but mostly adults who like the feeling of shooting kids, and the usual seven year-old from down the street, but never anybody like Bob and me until recently. We found someone a block away who seemed interested (let's call him Ted for now). On Saturday I'm having a friend over so maybe Ted, Bob and the frined I'm having over can do some 2v2. I can't wait to try out my new 1100 in battle :) .
For the 2v2 we won't use the forest. Although the forest is only about 5km away.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by DX » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:15 pm

You won't want to use that new 1100 in a forest unless you have ample refilling sources. It will rip through the capacity so fast - you have to kill quickly with those. I'm telling you that now so you don't have to find out the hard way :p
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:53 am

I never said I was going to have THIS battle in the forest. Doesn't look like there will even be a battle today. It's raining :(.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by HBWW » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:13 pm

@DX: With extra refill bottles, and if he's just playing elimination, it should last at least 1 or 2 rounds in the woods. If it's by the park, then there should be faucets somewhere to fill things up. Even if those areas are far from the combat area, they'll be useful to fill things up once every round or every few rounds. Of course, all of this assumes that he's using tap shots and short shots to conserve water.

Elimination games are much more fun with at least 3 people per team. I don't particularly like duels either since they often turn into one person continuously winning, or are just boring to carry out. (especially in large areas)

Weather. I never cancel wars unless the temperature goes below 70 or if there's something crazy like a green-sky thunderstorm with a downpour able to fill up a .5L as fast as a hose. With that said, I've played 2 wars in the rain which are rather fun. Obviously, I wouldn't recommend soakfest, but 1HK is great for rainy wars. Both wars were roughly 3v3 or 4v4. One of them was for a birthday party, I got everyone to war, and it was great. Unfortunately, it seems that your friends may not do the same.

If the woods are thin enough to move through, but thick enough for cover, by all means, go for it. Even if there isn't a refill source within reasonable distance, keep water stored in the car, or keep it in a large container somewhere. Perhaps bring several gallon jugs and/or a few of those huge ~5 gallon containers for drinking water or perhaps camp showers.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:34 am

Darnit, I've said twice that I wouldn't be using the woods for the battle! Read carefully, people... Anyway, the battle never happened. Don't get me wrong, people in my neighbourhood like water warfare, just not to the point where they would go out in the rain and have a fight. To them (and me, partially), it defeats the purpose of a water fight. Even if it's OHK, they still wouldn't want to play a game where you try to get people wet with Super Soakers when the sky is raining water too. It'd be like playing paintball with paintballs falling out of the sky.

Maybe I'll have a battle with some friends in the woods on a day that it's sunny. I don't know though, my dad might not be that hot for the idea anyway. A few weeks ago, I saw a shady character sell a bag of cocaine to another person so I guess the place is a bit of a drug rendez-vous. I don't think my dad or I would feel to comfortable there. We'll see.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by HBWW » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:12 pm

I never said you'd use the woods either, I only said IF you did and provided suggestions for it. As for the people there, if you have enough people in your group who are old enough, you may still be able to get through, but be VERY careful. If anyone's carrying a real weapon (or looks like they could be), stay out of there, period. And never hesitate to call police if needed. (Perhaps you should talk to local authorities about the problem there. You probably shouldn't war there, period, unless those issues are taken care of)

As for warring in the rain, I find the atmosphere to be more epic, and you can't just simply dry off if you're drenched. The fact that it's rain plus water guns instead of anything else just makes it better.
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Re: Looking for Water Warfare Team Volunteers

Post by steelboot. » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:26 pm

Sorry about the misunderstanding on where the war would be. Though I agree with you that the rain would make it more epic, I don't think anybody else I know would. And the safety issue makes it even more distant. Sometime in the next few days, I'll go around the city scouting out nice spots for water fights. There are a few circular streets that are literally small circles with cute little grass islands in the middle. I don't think the residents would care if we used their space. In fact, it would probably make more participants if our team and some friends were to crash the party there!
Water Warrior for three summers and counting.
Was captain of a team, but team disbanded due to lack of interest.
Still love soakers.
SOAK AND DESTROY = BEST GAME EVER

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