Mini SCII?

Guides and discussions about building water blasters and other water warfare devices such as water balloon launchers.
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atvan
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Mini SCII?

Post by atvan » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:40 pm

What do you guys think? I have some left over 3 inch pressure rated pipe, and I'm not gonna make another APH, so there is nothing else to use it for really. It would probably be fairly cheap too, as the 3in. is likely the most expensive part.

And the name. Mini Supercannon II? Minicannon? Minicannon II? I like Minicannon II the best, personally.
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martianshark
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by martianshark » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:02 pm

It might be kind of cool, but it wouldn't be very useful in a war. "Minicannon" would probably be best since there isn't a second version of it.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by SEAL » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:19 pm

I agree with martianshark. You could also make an SCH like mine, since it can easily break 50' (With the right nozzle.), is cheaper to build than a Supercannon setup (I think...?), and you wouldn't be aiming for long shot time either way.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by atvan » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:48 pm

But it would be essentially a SCII. Being smaller, it could be prepared faster than the SCII. The bend in you SCH makes me not really like it- not very ergonomic. I could do an XPS type thing and make it linear, but that would be difficult, and could he done with a soda bottle too, with 4 inch thinwall to protect from shrapnel or something.

This would be meant as a specialty weapon similar to APWC or whatever DX called them. One shot in the war, to break stalemates and such.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by Andrew » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:26 am

I quite like the idea! Infact, I'd have built one myself by now if I could find any large PVC pressure rated pipe at a reasonable price. :x

Being smaller than SCII it would likely have less powe, and be more suitable for a water war. Besides you can adjust the pre-charge to something safer!

Go ahead, better than wasting 3" pressure pipe, just make sure you test it before pointing it in anger. :goofy:

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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by DX » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:31 pm

I made a 3" piston water cannon before and dont think that it is worth the effort. The seals are expensive and they eventually warp. Unlike an air pressure water cannon, SCII designs require maintaining, plus a ramrod to shove the seal back after each shot. I wouldnt make an SCII unless I had 4" pipe. An air pressure version my not be as good looking, but it can still break 70 ft with no maintaining ever and no extra costs beyond pipe and fittings. My early design is inefficient, but works perfectly after 4 years in storage. A more efficient design with a real nozzle would be a force to be reckoned with (the one I brought to the community war cleared the basketball court with a 1" stick of pipe as a nozzle).
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by atvan » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:44 pm

could you make a design on PVC designer? I'd like some idea. Actually, photos would work too. :goofy:
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Well, not that much soakage.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by DX » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:09 am

Image

^This is how NOT to do an air pressure water cannon. The space in back is not just detrimental for being dead space - but it also drains water away from the nozzle area when the cannon is angled back to fire. The slant is not long enough, either. This results in air getting into the shot if there is not enough water. The water to air ratio must be guessed because the slant is capped and the ball valve doubles as the intake when filling up. Modern designing can avoid all of these faults. Of course, these are things I did not know when experimenting with air pressure water cannons in 2006. They may be second nature to physics people, but keep in mind that the 2006 Ridgewood Militia was built on athleticism and not physics. Also keep in mind that "water cannons" are the newest class of water weaponry in the online community and are still one of the least developed classes, despite the prominence of the SuperCannon II. Piston/air cannons are well known, but air pressure cannons are rarely built (I have pictures of just 3 in the past 5 years).

Even this very inefficient wye design is very powerful. When the water to air ratio is optimal, this 5 year old dinosaur is capable of outranging all other classes of soakers and homemades, except other water cannons, even with no nozzle attached, while dishing out more than quadruple the output of a CPS 2000 at said ranges in about the same amount of shot time. So, they are worth building if only to experience the raw power.

So, on to 2011 designs of air pressure water cannons,

Image

These are just potential designs that vary in their strengths and weaknesses. All water cannons have faults, which are on full display when you want to use plain air.

- The design cannot be linear like piston/air cannons, else air will get into the shot. This is similar to how PCs cannot be linear in air pressure homemades. You want the air to rest on top of the water.

- Air pressure water cannons are similar to pressurized reservoir guns in that you need to leave some space for air. The optimal ratio varies from gun to gun.

- You should be able to fill the cannon from the same place where the air resides. This way, you can visually see exactly how much water to put in. Don't fill from the ball valve. This departs from piston/air where you need to fill from the ball valve.

- You might be able to taper the pipe in the air section. This depends on what the optimal water to air ratio is and where the air actually begins in the piping. If you can, do so, for it makes the cannon lighter, less unbalanced in the front, and may be cheaper, too.

- Internal laminar flow is not a concern in air pressure versions. Air must be prevented from ruining your shot at all costs. Therefore, external laminaters are used, like straws and conical nozzles.

- If you use PVC ball valves, you definitely need a torque arm. 1" is the smallest valve size you should use and they are very stiff. Brass ball valves of that size are much looser, which is why I prefer them. Brass is often shorter, with threads, but also more expensive. When gluing a threaded valve, keep the valve attached to the reducer that attaches it to the rest of the gun. This way, you can set exactly where the handle is when screwed all the way in. If you don't plan well, the top of the gun might get in the way of it. Water cannons with a tight top tube should have the handle angled out, for both brass and PVC valves. Anything at 2" and up I would use a PVC valve for. The cost of brass at that threshold is not worth it and they are as stiff as their PVC counterparts, but the PVC is easier to make a torque arm for.

- The black striped thing in my diagram is not a nozzle or a reducer - it marks the preferred fitting to use for the air end - a 2" or 3" screw in cap. They are superior to ball valves in that they open to almost their full diameter, are physically short, and some slide right over pipe with no coupler required. 3" is better if you don't taper the top pipe, 2" is better if you do. These things are not always available in a given region and are not always pressure-rated when found. Since this will be under high pressure, do make sure that it's a rated fitting. However, given how tight the threads are, a weakly glued area somewhere else would probably give out first. When in doubt, just replace this with a ball valve. You want the largest, yet lightest, valve possible, up to 3". This may also require a torque arm to operate. Swing check valves are an alternative, but tend to be expensive at such large sizes. Don't use conventional spring and ball check valves - we are just pouring water in here and it won't have much force. This is where a simple end cap would go in older designs. Don't do that anymore - you need to see where the water should end and the air should begin.

- Schrader valves can be tapped in the side of 3" screw in caps and ball valves, but should not be tapped into 2" fittings. They aren't thick enough. Tapping a valve into pipe can actually be dangerous, so only do it where a 3" fitting comes over 3" pipe, or higher. You can make a tower for a screw-in schrader set up instead by using a tee somewhere in the AIR section (duh not below the intended water line). Reduce that end of the tee all the way down to your valve. Schrader towers are the weakest part of a water cannon, so use as few fittings as possible, and as short as possible. Bushings are great for this. I have never had an incident with a tap-in. When in doubt about safety, tap the valve into a side that isn't facing either the user, user's teammates, or the target. This usually means facing straight up or back. Never stand directly behind a water cannon as a general rule.

That's it for now.
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atvan
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by atvan » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:06 am

Thanks for the info. I personally like the top center design. This project is going on backburner though, so many other things to do.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by Andrew » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:57 am

Im guessing you used a 1" ball valve and 3" pipe in your APWC? I'll probably have to wait a year and see if I can source such parts through uni, before I can build one of these. I probably won't have enough funds until then either. To reduce the dead space problem, you could have a 45° elbow connected directly to the ball valve (and so the same diameter as the ball valve), then have wider pipe in the main section.

It's not easy to find PVC ball valves at a decent price over here, and even harder to find full bore ball valves. Is it feasible to use a slide valve instead? Yes it won't provide as laminar a flow, but if you use a nozzle the same size as the ball valve input, then the extra diameter would increase the output and flow greatly. It would also be a lot easier to open and close. I'm just unsure whether the scale of that increase would outweigh the reduction in laminar flow. I ask mainly as these are a LOT cheaper in the UK than their ball valve equivalent.

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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by the oncoming storm » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:44 am

for relitve performance 60' range and 428x output should be resnable. vs 5x 50' range for rifles
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by wetmonkey442 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:52 am

^Please rephrase your comment in traditional conversational English.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by atvan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:44 pm

While this thread is revived, DX, could you post a picture of those cap things that you were talking about?
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by HBWW » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:11 pm

CPS1200fann wrote:for relitve performance 60' range and 428x output should be resnable. vs 5x 50' range for rifles
wetmonkey442 wrote:^Please rephrase your comment in traditional conversational English.
"Relative performance at 60' of range with 428x output should be reasonable, compared to 50' range and 5x output for CPS's."

That's my translation, if it helps.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by adronl » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:06 pm

3" cannons work great man you can use piston cups from mcmaster but it is better to figure out more of a solid design because they wear out o-rings are the way to go then you have cannon that uses a pisston that will take a very long time to wear out or leak.

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atvan
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by atvan » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:57 pm

Are you the adonl for SSC?

If so, welcome back, and where have you been. We're still wating for SCIII.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by SEAL » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:43 pm

^Agreed. Also, this is kind of an old topic; unless atvan plans to start building his water cannon, there's really no point in posting here. With that said, I would really like to make an APWC one of these days. They're so simple, but so powerful.

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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by Neptune » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:04 am

So are those designs for pressurized reservoir homemades? I personally really like the center right one. The gravity feeds into the water, and it could work as it's own stock!
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by SEAL » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:40 pm

They are technically PR homemades, but they work differently than stock PR guns. You have to first pour water into the nozzle, then pressurize the cannon with a bike pump.

If I were to make one of these, I'd probably do an over-under design.
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Re: Mini SCII?

Post by Neptune » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:34 pm

Why do you need to pour water on the seal? I'm missing something but would like to make one.
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