We expect too much from soakers now!

[cooldood31]

"They're not stupid! The people he plays with have more skill and battle experience than both you and me combined" If they just stand there and let others shoot them, I'd most definately say otherwise.

"If the person with the heavy soaker is smart he/she will not allow the person with the light one to be in range of him" People try to hold eachother out of range all the time, but it's not impossible to get in range.

[marauder]

Yet they often do just stand there! I wouldn't mention it if it didn't happen. And, IMO, it is pretty easy to dodge a CPS stream, even at close range. Stock streams travel very slowly and you can dodge and return fire in one motion.

If you mean around 25-30 feet as close range, then yes I think it's fairly easy enough to dodge at that range. Any closer and... well unless you have some cover I'm going to say you're going to get hit. At least with the people I play against. I always try to get to a tree or something if I'm at close range, getting closer than 20 feet to my brother or any of his friends is suicide.
About the people just stand there well... I'm guessing they're on the other team, but well either way I'll go ahead and say that's a BIG no no. People should never be standing still at close range.



Edited By marauder_4 on 1129254763

[Some Guy]

"If the person with the heavy soaker is smart he/she will not allow the person with the light one to be in range of him" People try to hold eachother out of range all the time, but it's not impossible to get in range.

I know, but then the person with the heavy gun can just back up. If they are so equally skilled, then neither will outrun the other.

"They're not stupid! The people he plays with have more skill and battle experience than both you and me combined" If they just stand there and let others shoot them, I'd most definately say otherwise.

You have to consider that Dux only uses modded soakers, the stream is traveling fast enough that they'll hardly have time to dodge it.



Edited By Some Guy on 1129255864

[DX]

In the middle of an open field, if we are tired enough, the battle can turn into a "stand there and fire from 30ft. away" kind of thing. This usually happens after we've run, either in pursuit or in retreat, a good distance of the park and must make a stand in a bad position. Under heavy pressure, and with no cover, standing and shooting is normally a last option. But this situation is much different if there is cover. Suddenly you need some tactics to waste enemy water or force some kind of significant move. 10ft of distance with 2 large trees for cover is a difficult duel. Especially at night.

if you don't like my theorie, try and prove me wrong

You can use whatever light gun you please, and I'll use whatever heavy gun comes to mind, and we could see who would win. This is only my 8th year of water warfare, but I would let you choose the battlefield type, conditions, and maybe even a handicap in kills as well.

in your wars the skills of the players must not be equal

You're right, Belisaurius and Guderian, the commanders of the other team, have double the amount of team-based battle experience that I have.

[cooldood31]

By the way, I am withdrawing from this opinion based argument. Nothing positive has, will, or can come out of it. The way this is going, it will only lead to personal attacks.

(in whatever style you choose)

[m15399]

I agree with Dux in that if you want more power you should do something about it. If you don't like the current soakers, why don't you take a few hours and make something you DO like. I see no reason to sit in your chair and complain to fellow enthusiasts, instead of doing something constructive to fix it! If you're too lazy to make a homemade, then I don't see how you have the energy to pump up your soaker.

I'm not saying it's wrong to be totally ok with the current soakers, but if you're going to complain, you might as well try a few homemades and/or mods.

[Some Guy]

After reading all of my previous posts I noticed that I actually didn't post an opinion, just rebuttals. So I decided that I would just post my opinion now.

People really do rely too much on the manufacturers, modding and homemades can cost the same and produce better results. Normally mods only go wrong if you are nervous about doing the said mod. Pretty much every mod is simple: CVF- cut out check valve-cover hole with epoxy, Collosus- open pc, wrap bike inner tubes around it. Now was that hard? Virtually all mods (except k-mod, collosus) take longer for the glue to dry than to perform. Personally I just do a mod before bed, sleep and it is all done. Most homemades can be built in a matter of days, or only a few hours of work. An APD will cost about 40 dollars. A 2100 of ebay today 25 dollars. Bag of balloons 7 dollars Plumber's epoxy 2 dollars. Knowing you don't need hasbro:priceless.

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

By the way for a k mod would "jumbo" balloons work or do you need special larger ballons. I used jumbo but for future reference is there a better alternative.

[Some Guy]

If by Jumbo you mean 12" balloons then they work. The smallest I've used is 9 inches, but the 12 inches just worked out much nicer. The 9 inch just kept riding up so to hold it down I tried a half-collosus, which just vaguely worked for holding them down.

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

12in when inflated right ?

[DX]

If it says 12" on the bag, then they are 12" balloons. The inflation size doesn't matter for modding water guns.

Mods and homemades are not nearly as difficult as many like to think. A nozzle mod takes 15 minutes, a k-mod takes up to 2 hours, a CVF takes 2 minutes, an APH takes up to 3 hours. The build/mod time goes down significantly after the first one you do. The glue drying takes easily more than 3/4 of the rest of the working time.

Some time somewhat soon, Nibor and I will work on the promised modding and homemade videos, which will show you what you need to do. The k-mod and CVF videos accidently got overwritten, but we will film them again.

[marauder]

"Yet they often do just stand there!" Wow. The people you play with must be fairly stupid.

"When skill is equal, the more powerful gun would win most of the time. That has come out in many of my wars." on the basis that light and heavy soakers are equal with different weaknesses and strengths, in your wars the skills of the players must not be equal (probably has something to do with them standing there like you said they do).

I haven't seen any personal attacks yet. I think all arguments here have been inciteful and thought provoking. I haven't had my feelings hurt, or anything else, and I sure hope nobody else has. You should stick around, we need everyone's opinion. Nothing good ever came from people being too afraid to state their own opinion.

[m15399]

On the topic of tactics:
In soakfests, all that matters is being able to aim correctly. My freinds have no concept of stream timing, so if I simply run ahead of the stream, I remain reasonably dry. In soakfests, in my expirience, you stay in close proximity to eachother, without any hiding or sniping that would be necessary in 1hk.

For 1hk, what matters the most is tactics. If your gun is the most powerful on the field, but you have poor tactics, someone could sneak up behind you and shoot you. If you have a weak gun, but your tactics are strong, you should be able to ambush/sneak up on your oponents.

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

The bottom line is we do expect to much from soakers and call less than 40 ft bad range. So unless "they"give us what we want next year, we will have to make for ourselves what "they" won't give us.

[DX]

Once you've seen good range, 40-45ft becomes average, and below 40 becomes bad range. By next summer, 50ft will most likely be average, when the upper end gets raised by more innovation and improved/optimized methods.

55-65ft is the best stuff currently, although I bet someone here has cracked 70 by now. "They" can't possibly match this due to restrictions and safety issues big business faces, so yes, "we" will have do it.

We've done a great job so far. Without Tech, 50ft would still be the highest range of a water gun. [CPS 2000]

[m15399]

Gosh, if you put it that way, a few years from now 70 could be average! :p That's a frightening thought... Although, I do look forward to the day someone breaks 100.



Edited By m15399 on 1129501932

[marauder]

Once you've seen good range, 40-45ft becomes average, and below 40 becomes bad range. By next summer, 50ft will most likely be average, when the upper end gets raised by more innovation and improved/optimized methods.

55-65ft is the best stuff currently, although I bet someone here has cracked 70 by now. "They" can't possibly match this due to restrictions and safety issues big business faces, so yes, "we" will have do it.

We've done a great job so far. Without Tech, 50ft would still be the highest range of a water gun. [CPS 2000]

That's average in your wars. Your wars make up probably a fraction of 0.0000001% of all water gun fights out there, so that's definitely not over all average. Not to dimean your wars, I really want to come to one. As far as our vermin wars, your statistics are about the same as ours, but I'm not quite sure that we'll be keeping up on tech this coming summer as most of us will be working and getting ready for our next semester in college.

[DX]

By average, I meant the range of what has been accomplished, not the average of every gun used in every war out there. Only a handful of guns hit the 60s or higher, a bit more hit the 50s, and the vast majority is 30s-40s.

It's too bad that there aren't many hardcore teams around. Tech + Tactics is a deadly combination that can draw victory over and over again.

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

I do look forward to the day someone breaks 100.

That may happen sooner than you think. Ben's next homemade probably reach the 90's, and a 80 ballon k-mod 11k with a nozzle mod could reach the 80's.

[Ultor_Solis]

Soaking requires about the same skills required to play dodgeball. You know, anticipating the path of the stream/ball.