Storms Duelfest’s

Discussions of all varieties of stock water guns and water blasters.
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Storms Duelfest’s

Post by the oncoming storm » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:33 pm

I recently bought a Storm 2500 and wanted to see how it stacks up to the "greatest" light primary ever the XP 150. So today I grabbed my friend Andy (the kid I was going to bring to the Season Opener) and ran some duels at Adair Park where Ben and I once dueled using the original duel-fest format of 5 min per player per gun. Here are the results.

Storm 2500 vs XP 150 (9 - 9)
This was an incredibly well fought round, the Storm 2500 can keep up with the 150's RoF well enough to be competitive and against the 150 it had a smoother stream that reduced area of the shot (neither was particularly effective through brush) making hit's slightly easier to dodge, the slight boost in range made up for it, it also handles better which meant that one hand shooting is easier. The 150 on the other hand still held a slight advantage in stream size and RoF but didn't handle as well and runs out more quickly. Both times the 150 had the least water after time expired, overall I did better with the 150 and Andy the 2500

Afterwards we pulled out pistols to see how they did

Storm 750 vs WW Viper (10 - 8 )
Another good round, the Viper looked to be very competitive on stream size but has higher output which makes it thirstier, meanwhile my 750 could range it without difficulty, pumps faster, uses less water, and handles better. Overall the Viper feels good to use but the 750 was just that little bit better and once again proved why it is called the "Greatest Pistol of All Time" and would be much better as a primary in longer rounds as the Viper ended both fights almost empty.

I was going to run my nozzle modded 275 (off, duel 5x, a single 10x) BEAST vs my 1000 by the car broke and I didn't have time.
Last edited by the oncoming storm on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:31 am

Hmm, very interesting. What are the stats for the Storm 2500? isoaker doesn't have them. Not sure if the 150 is the "greatest" light primary ever, but it is favored by a lot of people. Also you can't call the 750 the greatest pistol of all time until you match it up with an MD 4000, Liquidator, Triple Shot, etc.

I'd like to see more matchups between heavy blasters too. These duelfests are almost always between light blasters, which is cool and all, but light blaster rounds are less common, and pistol rounds are pretty much non-existent. Actually I'd really like to eventually test every major blaster and have them all ranked. Not sure who's got the time for that though.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:54 am

SEAL wrote:Hmm, very interesting. What are the stats for the Storm 2500? isoaker doesn't have them. Not sure if the 150 is the "greatest" light primary ever, but it is favored by a lot of people. Also you can't call the 750 the greatest pistol of all time until you match it up with an MD 4000, Liquidator, Triple Shot, etc.

I'd like to see more matchups between heavy blasters too. These duelfests are almost always between light blasters, which is cool and all, but light blaster rounds are less common, and pistol rounds are pretty much non-existent. Actually I'd really like to eventually test every major blaster and have them all ranked. Not sure who's got the time for that though.
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The Storm 2500 is pretty underappreciated. It was a big part of our lineup with Red Scorpion. The stream lamination is really difficult to dodge. The output is not much, but every single drop lands on contact. It's also worth noting that all the Storm 2500s we used shot the same distance (about 37 feet) whereas the 150s were all over the place from 33 to 38. The 3x nozzle on the pump is more useful than the 150's riot blast (only available on certain marks) IMHO as you can get close to 40 feet out of it and it's a nice long stream. Not that piston pumpers are really that great in 1hs games, but it is something extra. In soakfests you can fire your 1x nozzle while pumping with the 3x switched on and the effect is fairly close to a 275 in terms of how devastating it is.

The 150 still gets the edge in terms of mobility and how quickly you can tap shoot. One thing that annoyed me about the Storm 2500 was the ridges underneath the reservoir which are a little awkward and slightly impeded your mobility, or perhaps agility/capacity to quickly respond to an ambush from an unexpected direction, especially in an urban setting. It doesn't really impede you that much, but it is worth noting.


You should stay with us this weekend SEAL and we can do a number of different duels.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by the oncoming storm » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:48 pm

I ran some more fights with Andy today at Adair

CLASH OF THE TITANS CPS 2000 vs SS 300 6 - 7

It’s finally happened after pushing for others to test this matchup for 6 years and I have finally run it. The fight itself was was about how you would expect, the 2000 works best with hit and run attacks while relying on mobility to keep the 300 away while it pumps. meanwhile the 300 happens to be able to lay down rediculous amounts of water while the 2000 was moving in again to have a good shot, making it harder to get the kill. overall the 300 was able to push the 2000 around and landed more hits.

Storm 2500 vs CPS 1200 4 - 10

This one was a massacre the 1200 used is an anomaly like Robs and so output and range were far beyond the 2500’s ability to compensate

SS 300 vs 275 14 - 6

This was a really fun fight while the 300 has better range the 275 is more mobile has and slightly higher RoF I ended up using single 5x a lot as I found single 3x was lacking in the bushes
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:36 am

Oooh, nice! I was going to do 300 vs. 2000 and one point but my 300 isn't in the best shape (leaks) and then my 2000 started pump shooting. Back then I would've predicted the 2000 to win, but today those results aren't particularly surprising, especially after the season opener where my team had too many 2Ks and couldn't skirmish well. Matchup duels are all about which gun can skirmish better, so rate of fire might be the most important stat in these. Hence why the 150 always does so well. In a real war though, I still think the 2000 does its job better than any other gun. I know people don't like to use the word "sniping" in water wars, but that is more or less what you do with one.

Does anyone have a 3000 or 3200? I'd like to see one of those go up against the 300. Also 1500 and 2500 vs. 2000. I'd also like to see matchups with some of the borderline blasters on the tier list, which might help with sorting. For example, Monster X vs. 2500, Vanquisher vs. 1000, XXP 275 vs. XP 150, etc.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:49 am

Great writeup. I would like to run that 300 vs 2000 test again with different people since you are so used to using the 300. SEAL, it's ok if you use the term sniping, we all know what you mean by that within the context of a watergun fight.

I think Rob and I did the 275 vs 150, but I will have to go back and check.

Maybe Stephen, Brandon, the boys, and I can meet somewhere half way and do more of these.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by the oncoming storm » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:03 am

It’s my opinion that tactically the best way to use a 2000 is to keep a HWO like a 300, 3200 or 2700 in support range to maximize the 2000’s strength and minimize its weakness It’s the 2000’s job to land hits and it’s probably the best gun ever made for that role but it can’t skirmish very well or for very long so the HWO stays close to put up a defensive screen for both of them.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:30 pm

marauder: I just checked the old Duelfest thread and you didn't do 275 vs. 150, but you did do 250 vs. 150, and the 150 lost 4 to 11. Then the 275 narrowly beat the 250 4 to 3, and in turn was beaten by the Gorgon 3 to 1. Since the Gorgon is basically on par with the best medium guns, I'd suggest moving the 275 and 250 to the medium class. They compete more evenly with the Gorgon than with the 150.

The most effective way to use a 2000 is against newbies. :p They never realize that they're in range until it's too late. Which by the way (sorry for the tangent, storm), is one reason why I think taking down individual player stats is pointless. "Yay, I got the best stats of the war!" You don't say? It's kinda hard not to when you're a veteran player wielding a 2000 against a bunch of hapless new players with Python 2s... It's like having the Yankees play against a Little League team and trying to count it as an official season game. That's why I only ever keep track of team scores, and even then, only in more serious games (i.e. league events and not like Soakemore or something). This does not bother me in any way shape or form, but I did want to point it out because I think it's pretty silly.

But yeah, it would be cool to get together sometime to do some matchups. Hopefully I'll be getting a few more of my guns down here soon, which should help. We just need to find a good place. If there were five of us we could run two duels at the same time while the fifth person films.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:38 am

SEAL wrote:marauder: I just checked the old Duelfest thread and you didn't do 275 vs. 150, but you did do 250 vs. 150, and the 150 lost 4 to 11. Then the 275 narrowly beat the 250 4 to 3, and in turn was beaten by the Gorgon 3 to 1. Since the Gorgon is basically on par with the best medium guns, I'd suggest moving the 275 and 250 to the medium class. They compete more evenly with the Gorgon than with the 150.
I don't think that blaster classes have mattered much recently. We used to do a lot of battles based off blaster classes, but we haven't in like... 3 years? The Gorgon is definitely a weird one. It can be awkward and annoying to use, but in the right circumstances it can even outclass stock 1000s/1200s/2100s. Alternately, it is so bulky that in some situations (e.g. thicker battlefields or CTF) I would prefer to use my modded 600.

All of that being said, stats are going to be somewhat subjective to the users and the battlefield. The idea of duelfest is to give a general idea of how one gun is vs another and that will be much more accurate if we perform more testing and use multiple people. I would, at some point, like to add a section to my Hydrowar reviews for this. I would show the scores vs other guns, and with enough duels (more people doing it) I would show a range, kind of like you see with mpg. Something like, the 250 is an average of +5 vs the 150, with a range of +1 to +11 or something like that.
SEAL wrote:The most effective way to use a 2000 is against newbies. :p They never realize that they're in range until it's too late. Which by the way (sorry for the tangent, storm), is one reason why I think taking down individual player stats is pointless. "Yay, I got the best stats of the war!" You don't say? It's kinda hard not to when you're a veteran player wielding a 2000 against a bunch of hapless new players with Python 2s... It's like having the Yankees play against a Little League team and trying to count it as an official season game. That's why I only ever keep track of team scores, and even then, only in more serious games (i.e. league events and not like Soakemore or something). This does not bother me in any way shape or form, but I did want to point it out because I think it's pretty silly.
Individual stats are important to write down IMHO, but I always write what blaster everyone was using too. Stats help me a number of ways. I can figure out what guns I use best, I can see how people have improved over the years, what guns or lineups work best on what battlefields, etc. Your general idea is true, individual stats in and of themselves don't tell you much, but they do if you dig deeper. I also keep them because despite having my share of being that OP vet player with the 2000 gunning down n00bs I am also quite concerned about people having a good time and a fair chance - especially new players.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:15 pm

We haven't used blaster classes in quite some time, but then again we haven't had nearly as many big wars recently either. I for one would like to see battles played with different classes again (or some kind of mechanic where certain players can only use certain classes), but that's probably best saved for a more casual war, rather than the league games where the goal is just to win, with the best you've got. I love hardcore wars, but at some point next season I do want to host something more casual, perhaps in the form of a party, so as to help draw in new players. League battles probably aren't the best for introducing people to the sport.

I like duelfests as a quick way to get a rough idea of how two guns stack up against each other, to help with class sorting. Then in the real world, if it seems obvious that a blaster is dominating, we can move it up a class. Or the opposite if the gun seems to be far outclassed. Nothing is set in stone. And yeah, if we do enough of these, we can definitely have some kind of way of ranking guns or something.

Agreed on the Gorgon being bulky and awkward, and that is precisely why I never cared for it that much. There is no doubt it's got power, but I feel more maneuverable wielding a freaking 2700 than a Gorgon. Although I will say that the 2700 is probably one of the most perfectly-balanced guns there is, assuming you hold it under the barrel. Why couldn't they have put the pump there? On the topic of the thread, I would like to see the 2700 in a duelfest. It has several interesting potential competitors. The 600 should be dueled as well. It could go against the 1200, 275, 150, etc.

I've been the "elite" guy with the 2000 too. I felt like a badass at the time, but looking back on it there wasn't really a whole lot to be proud of. I agree that it would have been better to have given the new players a fairer chance, which might have led to them having a better time. I guess that's me growing up, haha. Of course, in hardcore games I'm still going balls to the wall. The attitude with which I approach a hardcore war is completely different from a casual one. For the former, it's win at all costs, but for the latter, it's have as much fun as possible, and make sure everyone else has as much fun as possible. That's one key thing I want to keep in mind for the next generation of water wars. I've got a lot of ideas coming down the pipe, so stay tuned!

But anyway, while I generally agree with what you're saying, to me tracking stats and all that isn't nearly as valuable as simply being observant and taking mental notes.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:14 am

SEAL wrote:We haven't used blaster classes in quite some time, but then again we haven't had nearly as many big wars recently either. I for one would like to see battles played with different classes again
That is an interesting thought, but in the past battle size hasn't deterred us from playing matches with blaster classes. See:

Downpour 2011: 9 attendees
Frozen Fury 2012: 8
Hydropocalypse: 18 (but most per battle was 13 or 14)
MOAB 2013: 9
Frozen Fury 2013: 11

Our average per war has historically been 9, we have 2 at average, 1 below, and 2 above. The big difference though, is how long ago these wars were.

Do you still have a 2700 you could bring over? My 600 is modded, so any testing would be per the mod (4x nozzle) that I did, unless someone can bring a stock 600 - but if you have a stock 600 how could you not increase the nozzle size?

I think that when it comes to blaster observations and ensuring everyone is having fun and not getting annihilated I lean more towards figuring out what blasters to recommend noobs, or players who may not have done so well in the past. E.g. some players have leaned towards grabbing Python 2s in an anything goes war and then they wonder why they get annihilated. We could make an effort to loan out a 1500 or something to them instead. This may seem elementary as we all know which blasters are more powerful than others, but there are particular nuances to each blaster and how everyone uses them. For instance, Keith is echelons above everyone else with that Vanquisher. I have seen some players who weren't that great with 1000s but then happen to do well with 1500s.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Well most of the recent battles have been more hardcore/competitive, and we haven't bothered with changing up classes. If I remember right, the last time we had a large war in a more "traditional" format (i.e. multiple short rounds per day) was Soakemore '16; over two years ago. Definitely not complaining about that haha, but like I said it's probably a good idea to throw in like one or two casual wars a year solely for the purpose of getting people interested. Not this year though, as we've already got three events to squeeze in before next year. And it might be interesting to have people play with certain classes in future League events too. I want every season to be unique. This first one is all 1HS just because I wanted to keep it simple to start with.

I don't have my 2700 at the moment, but I'm going to see if I can get it down here. I had some issues with the trigger sticking before, but last I used it everything worked properly. I think it would be fine to test the modded 600. You guys dueled with a nozzle-drilled Gorgon, right? Usually modifying a gun won't change its class as long as it's not so heavily modded that it isn't really the same gun anymore. Nozzle mods are so easy to do anyway.

Speaking of the Vanquisher, I definitely want to run tests with that as well. I think it is very underrated. It's a little awkward (nothing like a Gorgon or Vindicator though), but it shoots far and lasts FOREVER. Output is a little low, but that's easy to fix. I want to match it up with several mediums.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:35 am

We need to get Keith down here for this. The modded Gorgon we used had a 10x nozzle which was very effective for close range shooting around trees, but my 4x mod gives it an increase in range (about 42 feet).

I would actually be quite interested to do another war like Soakermore 16. We could finish the year out on the current path and then next year could be more traditional. We need to get more posting/input on future wars for this year first. I still haven't heard anything from anyone else about the rest of the year, which is disappointing, but perhaps more reason we should just do a local meet up and I can try to drum up some local support from the kids in the neighborhood or church.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by the oncoming storm » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:13 am

Bump

I know this is an older post but I’ve got more updates

Storm 750 vs Colossus 2 14-9
This one was a little bit of an upset but basically they are both light enough to be highly mobile guns and the Colossus 2 has a design flaw that causes air in the shot when firing on the move hindering its effectiveness.

CPS 1000 vs XP 150 13-8
This fight was really competitive and the 150 put up a good fight considering it was outranged by 5’ and has almost 1/2 the output. It’s difficult to run an experienced 1000 out of pressure as an attacker so it’s range advantage was more useful,

CPS 1700 vs Pulse Master 4-3
The Pulse Master put up a very good fight against a CPS cannon all things considered. I found it handles better than a 1700 and the trigger was a joy with its light and rapid action RoF was slightly better to and so it pushed the 1700 which was on the defensive the entire time. But the 1700s raw power and defensive ability held out and won the day.

CPS 2500 vs CPS 1700 4-2
Both guns have similar power, range, and RoF but the handling on the 2500 was much nicer causing a dramatic difference in combat ability.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:10 am

You got a Pulse Master? That's awesome, I've long been curious about it since nobody has ever brought one to a war before, and it seems to have pretty good stats. That's actually quite impressive that it was able to hang with a 1700. You should definitely run it against the 1000 and the Gorgon if you still have it.

I do like the handling on the 2000/2500. It's a lot like holding a rifle. I personally don't think the 1500/1700 handles horribly, but it definitely needs a tracked pump. The 2700 is probably the worst offender when it comes to needing a tracked pump. It's perfectly balanced...when your hand isn't on the pump.

Not surprised the Colossus 2 lost. It really is a poor performer. I fought one-on-one against one in a battle while wielding an original Colossus, and came out on top every time. And this was against Scott, who is one of the best at one-on-one fighting. The C2 doesn't lack range, but the stream just dies off so fast and won't stay together. The Python 2 had the same issue, but that's PR so it's understandable there.

Edit: I would probably change the title to "Storm's Duelfests" or something since it's not 2018 anymore. I'll leave it up to you to decide what to call it though.
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Re: Storms Duelfests

Post by the oncoming storm » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:40 pm

Pulse Master vs Gorgon 6-6
Yes the legendary Gorgon returns to duelfest after a long hiatus. The result was a really good battle, overall the Pulse Masters 5x setting felt more powerful than the stock nozzles on my Gorgon but it’s superior PC volume allowed it to have a higher RoF and push the attack. Overall it was really competitive and I wouldn’t feel bad about using either.

Gorgon vs Splater Blaster 11-1
On a whim we pulled out a piston NSS and fought a stock Gorgon overall the result was a massacre. Even in stock form the Gorgon has superior everything except mobility and that’s all she wrote.
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Re: Storms Duelfest’s

Post by marauder » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:02 pm

Guys, we need to get together again. Reading this makes me feel all happy inside. That 750 battle confirms what I've wondered for a long time now. I need to fix mine. The stream is soooooo smooth, and it shockingly doesn't mist all that easily. The Collosus 2 probably outranges it by a solid 5-8 feet though. Wow.
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Re: Storms Duelfest’s

Post by the oncoming storm » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:01 pm

I did a few more battles in the last week

Storm T Shock 8000 vs Speed Loader 1000 6-1
This was a huge surprise to me, I expected it to be nearly a dead heat but smooth stream and 5x greater field life allowed it to utterly destroy the Speedloader

Storm T Shock 8000 vs Colossus 2 9-2.
A big win as I expected but the field life was much better and you could afford to miss which helped it be closer than the Speedloader

SS 300 vs “Beast” (modded XXP 275) 6-4
This fight was amazing and showcased why I love both guns so much. Singled 3x is deceptively powerful hitting Kmod ranges while having XP class RoF and HWO like field life overall thought while the 300 retained the advantage at long range with higher range and output and remains to this day the greatest defensive gun of all time. But the Beast wasn’t entirely outclassed and had the advantage if the fight closed range for a minute or two with its mobility and higher RoF. My friend remarked on just how powerful the 300 is but found it remarkably difficult to move quickly with, we both preferred the statistically inferior “Beast” simply for the advantage of maneuverability.

Beast (modded 275) vs Gorgon 4-3
This fight was proof positive that my beast is in a completely different league compared to stock. At the original duelfest a stock 275 and Gorgon faced off resulting in a 4-1 massacre by the Gorgon. Today however we found that despite my friend having never even fired a lever action until today the “Beast” proved itself the better weapon winning on shear power as it’s 3x nozzle consistently outperformed the Gorgon’s 4x in both range and RoF. When asked his thoughts on it my friend said that while he agreed that Beast is noticeably more powerful he would still prefer the Gorgon in combat as its handling is far easier.
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Re: Storms Duelfest’s

Post by SEAL » Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:01 pm

Wow, you got a lot of rare weapons. I had a T-Shock 8000 back in 2002. It was like a mini Splashzooka, but we were dumb kids and couldn't figure out how to fill it. Seems to be a pretty good blaster though if it could beat down the C2 like that. Or maybe that just goes to show how bad the C2 is, haha. Didn't they make a bigger T-Shock? I remember seeing a picture of one on the back of a box, but I've never actually seen a physical one. I think it was called the 16000 or something. It was more 'Zook sized, and probably would have been quite beastly. I'd like to see one someday.

What mods have you done to your 275? Did you just single it and take out the splitter? Seems like that would put it on par with a 250, but yours sounds like it's a lot more powerful.
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Re: Storms Duelfest’s

Post by the oncoming storm » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:42 pm

Believe it or not Seal my 275 has everything that a stock 275 should have, it’s still got twin nozzles what I did was converted the shower and fan settings to an off setting, twin 5x and a 10x. That 45’ range has been verified against multiple CPS 2500’s on their 10x and in combat alongside Scott’s 10k all of which it equals in range. I was extremely surprised at the range when I first tested it especially since it gets max range on single 3x. Its not even anomalous as stock twin 3x’s are outranged even by a Colossus 2 Which hits 39’ stock

In other news I ran some more tests on Saturday

Yellow jacket vs Colossus 2 5-4
Yellow jacket is overall only slightly superior and I really can’t place where it comes from but It was a competitive match.

Viper vs XP 220 5-3
The Viper has range and output but RoF is better on the 220 and so it could make up some of that overall the viper would probably do far better again larger guns.

Colossus 2 vs Thresher 9-3
Thresher is a small WW piston gun intended for little kids which while extremely light and easy to use was dramatically outclassed in dense cover Resulting in a 7-1 lead when I tried staying in the woods while using the Thresher my friend is much more fit and pushed the attack more with the Thresher driving the C2 into the open a lot more helping overcome the 10-15’ range disadvantage and use its superior RoF allowing it to claw back to a 9-3

Colossus 2 vs Power Raider 4-1
Power Raider is a Walmart gun made by buzz bee toys, unfortunately they doubled down on the C2 weakness’s of low shot time and RoF, furthermore I found that the C2 has about 5’ of range on it resulting in a bad matchup.
If you ever bother reading these, I worry for your mental sanity. :oo:

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