Duelfest 2018

Discussions of all varieties of stock water guns and water blasters.
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the oncoming storm
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Duelfest 2018

Post by the oncoming storm » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:33 pm

I recently bought a Storm 2500 and wanted to see how it stacks up to the "greatest" light primary ever the XP 150. So today I grabbed my friend Andy (the kid I was going to bring to the Season Opener) and ran some duels at Adair Park where Ben and I once dueled using the original duel-fest format of 5 min per player per gun. Here are the results.

Storm 2500 vs XP 150 (9 - 9)
This was an incredibly well fought round, the Storm 2500 can keep up with the 150's RoF well enough to be competitive and against the 150 it had a smoother stream that reduced area of the shot (neither was particularly effective through brush) making hit's slightly easier to dodge, the slight boost in range made up for it, it also handles better which meant that one hand shooting is easier. The 150 on the other hand still held a slight advantage in stream size and RoF but didn't handle as well and runs out more quickly. Both times the 150 had the least water after time expired, overall I did better with the 150 and Andy the 2500

Afterwards we pulled out pistols to see how they did

Storm 750 vs WW Viper (10 - 8 )
Another good round, the Viper looked to be very competitive on stream size but has higher output which makes it thirstier, meanwhile my 750 could range it without difficulty, pumps faster, uses less water, and handles better. Overall the Viper feels good to use but the 750 was just that little bit better and once again proved why it is called the "Greatest Pistol of All Time" and would be much better as a primary in longer rounds as the Viper ended both fights almost empty.

I was going to run my nozzle modded 275 (off, duel 5x, a single 10x) BEAST vs my 1000 by the car broke and I didn't have time.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:31 am

Hmm, very interesting. What are the stats for the Storm 2500? isoaker doesn't have them. Not sure if the 150 is the "greatest" light primary ever, but it is favored by a lot of people. Also you can't call the 750 the greatest pistol of all time until you match it up with an MD 4000, Liquidator, Triple Shot, etc.

I'd like to see more matchups between heavy blasters too. These duelfests are almost always between light blasters, which is cool and all, but light blaster rounds are less common, and pistol rounds are pretty much non-existent. Actually I'd really like to eventually test every major blaster and have them all ranked. Not sure who's got the time for that though.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:54 am

SEAL wrote:Hmm, very interesting. What are the stats for the Storm 2500? isoaker doesn't have them. Not sure if the 150 is the "greatest" light primary ever, but it is favored by a lot of people. Also you can't call the 750 the greatest pistol of all time until you match it up with an MD 4000, Liquidator, Triple Shot, etc.

I'd like to see more matchups between heavy blasters too. These duelfests are almost always between light blasters, which is cool and all, but light blaster rounds are less common, and pistol rounds are pretty much non-existent. Actually I'd really like to eventually test every major blaster and have them all ranked. Not sure who's got the time for that though.
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The Storm 2500 is pretty underappreciated. It was a big part of our lineup with Red Scorpion. The stream lamination is really difficult to dodge. The output is not much, but every single drop lands on contact. It's also worth noting that all the Storm 2500s we used shot the same distance (about 37 feet) whereas the 150s were all over the place from 33 to 38. The 3x nozzle on the pump is more useful than the 150's riot blast (only available on certain marks) IMHO as you can get close to 40 feet out of it and it's a nice long stream. Not that piston pumpers are really that great in 1hs games, but it is something extra. In soakfests you can fire your 1x nozzle while pumping with the 3x switched on and the effect is fairly close to a 275 in terms of how devastating it is.

The 150 still gets the edge in terms of mobility and how quickly you can tap shoot. One thing that annoyed me about the Storm 2500 was the ridges underneath the reservoir which are a little awkward and slightly impeded your mobility, or perhaps agility/capacity to quickly respond to an ambush from an unexpected direction, especially in an urban setting. It doesn't really impede you that much, but it is worth noting.


You should stay with us this weekend SEAL and we can do a number of different duels.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by the oncoming storm » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:48 pm

I ran some more fights with Andy today at Adair

CLASH OF THE TITANS CPS 2000 vs SS 300 6 - 7

It’s finally happened after pushing for others to test this matchup for 6 years and I have finally run it. The fight itself was was about how you would expect, the 2000 works best with hit and run attacks while relying on mobility to keep the 300 away while it pumps. meanwhile the 300 happens to be able to lay down rediculous amounts of water while the 2000 was moving in again to have a good shot, making it harder to get the kill. overall the 300 was able to push the 2000 around and landed more hits.

Storm 2500 vs CPS 1200 4 - 10

This one was a massacre the 1200 used is an anomaly like Robs and so output and range were far beyond the 2500’s ability to compensate

SS 300 vs 275 14 - 6

This was a really fun fight while the 300 has better range the 275 is more mobile has and slightly higher RoF I ended up using single 5x a lot as I found single 3x was lacking in the bushes
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:36 am

Oooh, nice! I was going to do 300 vs. 2000 and one point but my 300 isn't in the best shape (leaks) and then my 2000 started pump shooting. Back then I would've predicted the 2000 to win, but today those results aren't particularly surprising, especially after the season opener where my team had too many 2Ks and couldn't skirmish well. Matchup duels are all about which gun can skirmish better, so rate of fire might be the most important stat in these. Hence why the 150 always does so well. In a real war though, I still think the 2000 does its job better than any other gun. I know people don't like to use the word "sniping" in water wars, but that is more or less what you do with one.

Does anyone have a 3000 or 3200? I'd like to see one of those go up against the 300. Also 1500 and 2500 vs. 2000. I'd also like to see matchups with some of the borderline blasters on the tier list, which might help with sorting. For example, Monster X vs. 2500, Vanquisher vs. 1000, XXP 275 vs. XP 150, etc.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:49 am

Great writeup. I would like to run that 300 vs 2000 test again with different people since you are so used to using the 300. SEAL, it's ok if you use the term sniping, we all know what you mean by that within the context of a watergun fight.

I think Rob and I did the 275 vs 150, but I will have to go back and check.

Maybe Stephen, Brandon, the boys, and I can meet somewhere half way and do more of these.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by the oncoming storm » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:03 am

It’s my opinion that tactically the best way to use a 2000 is to keep a HWO like a 300, 3200 or 2700 in support range to maximize the 2000’s strength and minimize its weakness It’s the 2000’s job to land hits and it’s probably the best gun ever made for that role but it can’t skirmish very well or for very long so the HWO stays close to put up a defensive screen for both of them.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:30 pm

marauder: I just checked the old Duelfest thread and you didn't do 275 vs. 150, but you did do 250 vs. 150, and the 150 lost 4 to 11. Then the 275 narrowly beat the 250 4 to 3, and in turn was beaten by the Gorgon 3 to 1. Since the Gorgon is basically on par with the best medium guns, I'd suggest moving the 275 and 250 to the medium class. They compete more evenly with the Gorgon than with the 150.

The most effective way to use a 2000 is against newbies. :p They never realize that they're in range until it's too late. Which by the way (sorry for the tangent, storm), is one reason why I think taking down individual player stats is pointless. "Yay, I got the best stats of the war!" You don't say? It's kinda hard not to when you're a veteran player wielding a 2000 against a bunch of hapless new players with Python 2s... It's like having the Yankees play against a Little League team and trying to count it as an official season game. That's why I only ever keep track of team scores, and even then, only in more serious games (i.e. league events and not like Soakemore or something). This does not bother me in any way shape or form, but I did want to point it out because I think it's pretty silly.

But yeah, it would be cool to get together sometime to do some matchups. Hopefully I'll be getting a few more of my guns down here soon, which should help. We just need to find a good place. If there were five of us we could run two duels at the same time while the fifth person films.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:38 am

SEAL wrote:marauder: I just checked the old Duelfest thread and you didn't do 275 vs. 150, but you did do 250 vs. 150, and the 150 lost 4 to 11. Then the 275 narrowly beat the 250 4 to 3, and in turn was beaten by the Gorgon 3 to 1. Since the Gorgon is basically on par with the best medium guns, I'd suggest moving the 275 and 250 to the medium class. They compete more evenly with the Gorgon than with the 150.
I don't think that blaster classes have mattered much recently. We used to do a lot of battles based off blaster classes, but we haven't in like... 3 years? The Gorgon is definitely a weird one. It can be awkward and annoying to use, but in the right circumstances it can even outclass stock 1000s/1200s/2100s. Alternately, it is so bulky that in some situations (e.g. thicker battlefields or CTF) I would prefer to use my modded 600.

All of that being said, stats are going to be somewhat subjective to the users and the battlefield. The idea of duelfest is to give a general idea of how one gun is vs another and that will be much more accurate if we perform more testing and use multiple people. I would, at some point, like to add a section to my Hydrowar reviews for this. I would show the scores vs other guns, and with enough duels (more people doing it) I would show a range, kind of like you see with mpg. Something like, the 250 is an average of +5 vs the 150, with a range of +1 to +11 or something like that.
SEAL wrote:The most effective way to use a 2000 is against newbies. :p They never realize that they're in range until it's too late. Which by the way (sorry for the tangent, storm), is one reason why I think taking down individual player stats is pointless. "Yay, I got the best stats of the war!" You don't say? It's kinda hard not to when you're a veteran player wielding a 2000 against a bunch of hapless new players with Python 2s... It's like having the Yankees play against a Little League team and trying to count it as an official season game. That's why I only ever keep track of team scores, and even then, only in more serious games (i.e. league events and not like Soakemore or something). This does not bother me in any way shape or form, but I did want to point it out because I think it's pretty silly.
Individual stats are important to write down IMHO, but I always write what blaster everyone was using too. Stats help me a number of ways. I can figure out what guns I use best, I can see how people have improved over the years, what guns or lineups work best on what battlefields, etc. Your general idea is true, individual stats in and of themselves don't tell you much, but they do if you dig deeper. I also keep them because despite having my share of being that OP vet player with the 2000 gunning down n00bs I am also quite concerned about people having a good time and a fair chance - especially new players.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:15 pm

We haven't used blaster classes in quite some time, but then again we haven't had nearly as many big wars recently either. I for one would like to see battles played with different classes again (or some kind of mechanic where certain players can only use certain classes), but that's probably best saved for a more casual war, rather than the league games where the goal is just to win, with the best you've got. I love hardcore wars, but at some point next season I do want to host something more casual, perhaps in the form of a party, so as to help draw in new players. League battles probably aren't the best for introducing people to the sport.

I like duelfests as a quick way to get a rough idea of how two guns stack up against each other, to help with class sorting. Then in the real world, if it seems obvious that a blaster is dominating, we can move it up a class. Or the opposite if the gun seems to be far outclassed. Nothing is set in stone. And yeah, if we do enough of these, we can definitely have some kind of way of ranking guns or something.

Agreed on the Gorgon being bulky and awkward, and that is precisely why I never cared for it that much. There is no doubt it's got power, but I feel more maneuverable wielding a freaking 2700 than a Gorgon. Although I will say that the 2700 is probably one of the most perfectly-balanced guns there is, assuming you hold it under the barrel. Why couldn't they have put the pump there? On the topic of the thread, I would like to see the 2700 in a duelfest. It has several interesting potential competitors. The 600 should be dueled as well. It could go against the 1200, 275, 150, etc.

I've been the "elite" guy with the 2000 too. I felt like a badass at the time, but looking back on it there wasn't really a whole lot to be proud of. I agree that it would have been better to have given the new players a fairer chance, which might have led to them having a better time. I guess that's me growing up, haha. Of course, in hardcore games I'm still going balls to the wall. The attitude with which I approach a hardcore war is completely different from a casual one. For the former, it's win at all costs, but for the latter, it's have as much fun as possible, and make sure everyone else has as much fun as possible. That's one key thing I want to keep in mind for the next generation of water wars. I've got a lot of ideas coming down the pipe, so stay tuned!

But anyway, while I generally agree with what you're saying, to me tracking stats and all that isn't nearly as valuable as simply being observant and taking mental notes.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:14 am

SEAL wrote:We haven't used blaster classes in quite some time, but then again we haven't had nearly as many big wars recently either. I for one would like to see battles played with different classes again
That is an interesting thought, but in the past battle size hasn't deterred us from playing matches with blaster classes. See:

Downpour 2011: 9 attendees
Frozen Fury 2012: 8
Hydropocalypse: 18 (but most per battle was 13 or 14)
MOAB 2013: 9
Frozen Fury 2013: 11

Our average per war has historically been 9, we have 2 at average, 1 below, and 2 above. The big difference though, is how long ago these wars were.

Do you still have a 2700 you could bring over? My 600 is modded, so any testing would be per the mod (4x nozzle) that I did, unless someone can bring a stock 600 - but if you have a stock 600 how could you not increase the nozzle size?

I think that when it comes to blaster observations and ensuring everyone is having fun and not getting annihilated I lean more towards figuring out what blasters to recommend noobs, or players who may not have done so well in the past. E.g. some players have leaned towards grabbing Python 2s in an anything goes war and then they wonder why they get annihilated. We could make an effort to loan out a 1500 or something to them instead. This may seem elementary as we all know which blasters are more powerful than others, but there are particular nuances to each blaster and how everyone uses them. For instance, Keith is echelons above everyone else with that Vanquisher. I have seen some players who weren't that great with 1000s but then happen to do well with 1500s.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by SEAL » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Well most of the recent battles have been more hardcore/competitive, and we haven't bothered with changing up classes. If I remember right, the last time we had a large war in a more "traditional" format (i.e. multiple short rounds per day) was Soakemore '16; over two years ago. Definitely not complaining about that haha, but like I said it's probably a good idea to throw in like one or two casual wars a year solely for the purpose of getting people interested. Not this year though, as we've already got three events to squeeze in before next year. And it might be interesting to have people play with certain classes in future League events too. I want every season to be unique. This first one is all 1HS just because I wanted to keep it simple to start with.

I don't have my 2700 at the moment, but I'm going to see if I can get it down here. I had some issues with the trigger sticking before, but last I used it everything worked properly. I think it would be fine to test the modded 600. You guys dueled with a nozzle-drilled Gorgon, right? Usually modifying a gun won't change its class as long as it's not so heavily modded that it isn't really the same gun anymore. Nozzle mods are so easy to do anyway.

Speaking of the Vanquisher, I definitely want to run tests with that as well. I think it is very underrated. It's a little awkward (nothing like a Gorgon or Vindicator though), but it shoots far and lasts FOREVER. Output is a little low, but that's easy to fix. I want to match it up with several mediums.
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Re: Duelfest 2018

Post by marauder » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:35 am

We need to get Keith down here for this. The modded Gorgon we used had a 10x nozzle which was very effective for close range shooting around trees, but my 4x mod gives it an increase in range (about 42 feet).

I would actually be quite interested to do another war like Soakermore 16. We could finish the year out on the current path and then next year could be more traditional. We need to get more posting/input on future wars for this year first. I still haven't heard anything from anyone else about the rest of the year, which is disappointing, but perhaps more reason we should just do a local meet up and I can try to drum up some local support from the kids in the neighborhood or church.
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