Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

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Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by marauder » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:02 pm

Just thought that I'd point out the obvious. It's February 17th and still no news about any new Water Warriors for this year. We have Outlaws and some other other small guns at my local Wal Mart. I didn't see any at Target, just Air Warriors, when we went to Jackson this past weekend. Target did have another off brand of PR guns that looked halfway decent. The key there is "half way." If I had to guess you'd probably get XP 20 type performance out of something the size of a 270 or Python 2. I could be wrong, but it seems like Water Warriors are a little less common than they used to be. I hope they're not losing market share.

Has anyone seen anything new from Water Warriors Yet?
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by SEAL » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:03 pm

Nothing aside from the Harpoon. They certainly seemed to have slowed down after the lawsuit over CPS tech, haven't they? Though apparently they're supposed to be bringing back the pre-charger series (is the Krypton included? I hope so) this year. It would be cool if there were some more (useful) guns, but somehow my hopes aren't very high. We either have to hoard old guns, make practical homemades, or start having modern-guns-only wars.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by HBWW » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:46 pm

I recall an earlier post from iSoaker about near-future developments being less than exciting, and this seems to be precisely what we're seeing. The Colossus 2 still stands as the most capable blaster available on shelves these days, after all.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by jja » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:35 am

As far as I am aware in the UK water warriors Blasters have always been fairly scarce. Last year was pretty good though, we had the Hydro-Power Sphinx, Colossus 2, Python 2, Hornet 2 pack, Shark and Steady Stream 2 available at various times and places. Only about half that available this year so far though.

@CA99, From my understanding the Python 2 and Colossus 2 are quite evenly matched (although I have never used a Python 2 so i am just going on Isoaker's stats and what i have read here). What would you say gives the Colossus the edge?

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by marauder » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:20 am

Hey, welcome to WWN jja! How'd you find us? It would be nice if the precharger series is available again, I never got around to trying any of those.

The Python 2 vs Colossus 2 is an interesting match up. The Python 2 has more shot time, but the Colossus 2 can usually shoot at steeper angles due to having a pressure chamber. I think it may have a little bit of a range advantage as well. Oh, and it also holds more water, so you should be able to last longer with it.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by jja » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:58 am

Thanks Marauder, i found the forum through Isoaker, which i found via google when i was looking for information on better water blasters in 2011.

I had bought a Scatter Blast for a summer camp. my youth group played free for all soakfests and i did well with against all the other NSS stuff, including a Hydrocannon. I noted it could only fire once per 20 pumps. So i waited till another player got blasted and then attacked when they were defenseless (and ran before they could fire again). One of our leaders had brought a CPS 1000, to my uninformed eyes this was MUCH less intimidating than the Hydrocannon i had just vanquished, so I waited till they fired at some one else, Then Charged! The ice-cold 5x stream completely drenched me before i was even in range of my opponent! That was when i realized how little i knew about the world of water blasters.

I then started looking at reviews on Isoaker, i switched out my Scatter Blast for a Shotblast (which was quite an upgrade) and began to gain a reputation in my group for being a deadly water warrior (perhaps not deserved though)

Last year i was given the very CPS 1000 that started me on my water warfare career. i am now one of the leaders of the same youth group. i have organized team OHK and CTF matches for my group in place of the less tactical soakfests we used to play. Our battles are usually about 6v6 and range in equipment from players with Point Breaks to my CPS 1000, but despite the imbalance we can usually make fair teams.

I have also been compiling a list of the best blasters available to recommend them to my group so they don't waste money on less competitive blasters. Three of my group have recently acquired 2 Colossus 2s and a Hydro-Power Sphinx and all three of them play well and can counter me well despite the weapon disadvantage. (this list is why i asked about the Colossus 2 vs the Python 2, they are the only good primaries in the UK so far this year so i wanted to know how they stacked up against each other)

I have been hovering around since 2011 reading basically everything. Only more recently have i felt like i have anything worth contributing. The waterwar.net league's focus on CPS class blasters has made much of the discussion less relevant to my groups battles (piston class blaster like the WW shark are the average in my games). I have seen many posts saying things along the lines of "battles with lower output blasters are less fun" whilst this may be true, it serves to discourage players for who CPS tech is unobtainable.

Sorry if this wall of text is too off topic.

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by SEAL » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:12 pm

Welcome! 6v6 is pretty good; I've never seen more than 6v7. Do you have any pictures from these battles? (If so you can start a topic in the Wars section.) It's always awesome to see other people who take this hobby seriously. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not being able to get CPS blasters; when I started getting serious I only had one, and even now most of mine are wearing out. As long as your opponents have the same kind of blaster as you, it's no big deal what you have. I have a few pet peeves about fighting with weaker soakers, but they certainly don't make games with them less fun than games with CPS.

If I ever get to Wal-Mart or Target sometime soon I'll take a look and see if there's anything new.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by jja » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:25 pm

Thanks Seal. I have played larger games than 6v6, (20+player free for all soakfests) but i much prefer games where hits actually matter and there is some objective. What size games do you usually play (if any ) outside of the community wars?
The are very few pictures from the battles, most are just people standing around with blasters, so not much in the way of action. Also i wouldn't be able to post them without editing out everyone's faces so it unlikely i will post any. i may write up some battle reports for this years wars after they happen in summer.

last year was just the Charger and Power shot XL right? in that case i don't hold out much hope for anything more than the harpoon to be released.

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by isoaker » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:55 pm

Just keep thinking happy thoughts. Good things come to those who wait.

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by TheSoaker » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:58 pm

oh what's this? Image
super soaker cps 2000......SUPER SOAKER CPS 2000!!!!!!!!!1!!!1!!one

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by the oncoming storm » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:11 am

I win Buzz bee just posted the whole 2015 product line on FB

https://www.facebook.com/buzzbeetoysinc ... =3&theater
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by DX » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:37 am

The Steady Blast looks like a decently wide and decently long soaker...enough design space that it could have had a pressure chamber and been a modern day XP 270. *Le sigh* Those pump-action/spring hybrids are actually pretty good, but they have poor aim. The jiggle at the end of the pump stroke keeps your shot in the air and shifts it, making it more difficult to dodge compared to an ordinary tap or pulse shot. Hopefully the nozzles on the Steady Blast are larger than the Steady Stream and SS2, that would make up for it a bit. At least they kept the Python 2 and Colossus 2 in production. Outlaw, too, that's secretly got the best range of the lot. I'd still like to get my hands on a Charger for review.

@jja: Welcome to...posting. I'm sorry if the league has trended toward power and unavailable soakers, making it less appealing to participate in. Since most of us are in the US, we are able to tap into the massive secondary market and find CPS all over. The UK has never really had a great lineup of any soakers. It costs more for manufacturers to ship products there, so they have to mark them up, and it makes them less likely to sell. Evidently, PVC is also scarce over there, so homemades aren't a great option, either.

I take the Python 2 side of the P2/C2 debate. While the Colossus 2 does have some more range and capacity, it has short shot time, about 1/3rd shorter than the original Colossus. The Python 2, being a PR soaker, has long shot time. That shot drops off quicker, but you can just keep pumping it and shooting. Python 2s tend to have really loose pumps that slide effortlessly, while my Colossus 2 had a really stiff pump. It was way easier to keep the Python 2 shooting and that matters in a fast-paced battle. While water wars don't really have a "rate of fire" concept, some soakers can put up more sustained fire than others and you can use that to great advantage. This is why the XP 150 still owns its size class - the pump is so big and the nozzle is so small that the pressure chambers fill up faster than you can empty them, you can just keep shooting your opponent into submission (it is ironic that I use this style vs the exact opposite in Nerf).

I know that Buzz Bee is adverse to making larger pumps, but it would be appreciated beyond anything they could do to the range and output. Soakers with large or at least moderately sized pumps dominate and are pretty effective against much larger soakers (see XP 150 vs Gorgon). At least we only have to wait a couple more years for the CPS patent to expire.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by marauder » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:53 am

I wouldn't say that the XP 150 dominated the Gorgon... if it was anything it was probably the opposite. But was it competitive? Yeah. Ideally we could take out the Gorgon's pump and put in a 150 pump... been thinking about doing that for a year now. The 150 did beat the Colossus and Colossus 2 though. I'd love to do some more tests, and maybe bring more people into the testing to get better balance.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by SEAL » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:42 am

Oh no! BBT is going the way of Hasbro! The water warfare apocalypse is upon us! I don't see any pre-chargers either. I thought they were re-releasing them this year? Eh, whatever. I guess we can count ourselves lucky that they're still selling pressurized guns at all. I have to say though, those new offerings look rather cheap, much like the new Super Squirters do. But at least they have proper caps. :lol:
jja wrote:Thanks Seal. I have played larger games than 6v6, (20+player free for all soakfests) but i much prefer games where hits actually matter and there is some objective. What size games do you usually play (if any ) outside of the community wars?
The are very few pictures from the battles, most are just people standing around with blasters, so not much in the way of action. Also i wouldn't be able to post them without editing out everyone's faces so it unlikely i will post any. i may write up some battle reports for this years wars after they happen in summer.
I usually play very small games; either 3-FFA (my new notation for 3-person free-for-all) or 2v1, sometimes 2v2. On a few occasions I had more; I think 6 people was the most. We did an FFA and 3v3, both soakfests if I remember right. I think that was before I joined the community, and the best blaster on the field was a MD 6000. None of my friends or relatives are that interested in water wars. I definitely encourage you to write battle reports though; just because you can't make it to community wars doesn't mean you can't participate in the League.
marauder wrote:I wouldn't say that the XP 150 dominated the Gorgon... if it was anything it was probably the opposite.
I think DX said that the 150 dominates in it's own class and is fairly effective against larger blasters like the Gorgon. It's definitely quite formidable on the battlefield considering it has a 2X nozzle.
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:cool:
Are you talking about the expiration of the CPS patent, or do you know something we don't?
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by isoaker » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:34 pm

SEAL wrote:
isoaker wrote:Just keep thinking happy thoughts. Good things come to those who wait.

:cool:
Are you talking about the expiration of the CPS patent, or do you know something we don't?
The problem I see these days are that many jump to the negative very quickly while ignoring effort, reasons, etc. While one can aruge that the end result is what matters most (in this case, the quality of water blasters on the market), there seems to be a lack of appreciation of those who are trying to fight to good fight.

Then again, this is nothing new and I also find myself feeling that way at times. Nevertheless, I remain optimistic while accepting that the community wants better blasters, not just effort. Do or do not. There is no try? :oo:

However, because of this, I've generally reduced my activity here to avoid being jaded or caught up defending effort while outcomes remain sub-optimal. No number of reasons why things are as is would be accepted and I don't blame members for feeling that way. Only tangible results will do.

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by marauder » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:05 pm

I don't think any of us are angry at Buzz Bee. I can't speak for anyone else, but I understand the constraints of the current market. We're just speaking on what we see in terms of availability. The Colossus 2, Python 2, and Outlaw are all good guns for what we're interested in, so it's not a bad thing; there's just nothing new that's worth serious excitement. For what it's worth, that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the 3 new blasters, because I am,
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by SSCBen » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:43 pm

isoaker wrote:The problem I see these days are that many jump to the negative very quickly while ignoring effort, reasons, etc. While one can aruge that the end result is what matters most (in this case, the quality of water blasters on the market), there seems to be a lack of appreciation of those who are trying to fight to good fight.
I think part of the problem is that it's not precisely clear what Buzz Bee is doing (This is more or less the point marauder made in the OP). Maybe they dedicate a lot of time to trying make better blasters, but we don't see that they spent half their latest board meeting discussing that. We don't know what they do on a daily basis. Products in stores and social media are our only lines of communication with Buzz Bee.

With that said, I am somewhat skeptical that Buzz Bee is doing all they can and here's why: If they are limited to air pressure now along with a host of other restrictions, why don't we have something comparable to the SS 300? I'm sure this can be done with blasters of comparable size to what Buzz Bee is producing currently.

(I hope I don't come across as pessimistic. Actually, I am extremely optimistic. I think our hobby has a bright future based on coming market changes and my own research into water streams, though the next few years will be rough.)

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by DX » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:28 pm

The problem I see these days are that many jump to the negative very quickly while ignoring effort, reasons, etc. While one can aruge that the end result is what matters most (in this case, the quality of water blasters on the market), there seems to be a lack of appreciation of those who are trying to fight to good fight.
It's difficult to appreciate process when I am an extremely competitive, results-oriented person. Hasbro has basically thrown in the towel and is not interested in producing water guns. This is the time to kick them when they're down and take their market share. BBT appears to still be just sitting there and chugging along, content with the tiny sliver they have. There's no aggressive campaign to take over. I still argue that the market never really tanked like everyone says it has, all the people just moved to Nerf or started with Nerf. Kids not wanting to play with toy guns outside does not explain the explosive growth in the NIC, a force so large that it now directly impacts Hasbro's business decisions and the blasters they put out. Heck, the NIC is so large that it supports multiple competing companies that sell nothing but upgrade kits and parts for a limited handful of Hasbro blasters (and not even the good ones). Meanwhile, Hasbro puts out HUGE blasters that take up crazy shelf space, they put up HUGE price points approaching 3 figures, they break all the "rules" of modern toy retail. I really don't see the difference between 2015 Nerf and late 90s water guns. Same types of people, same market. They just want Nerf instead of water guns, because all the money is focused on developing that property.

I openly acknowledge that I am a tough customer and only results please me. 10-9 is a win, no matter how shaky or awful the play was. 9-10 is a loss, no matter how you present it. It's possible to lose with dignity and gain valuable knowledge and develop better as a team, but that doesn't change the score. I also can't change the way I am trained - the more I am denied an outcome, the more I crave it. That's the only way you can survive being creamed every week and still back into the blocks next time looking for victory. If I had enough money, I'd produce my own water guns for a limited market. This whole generation would do that if pushed hard enough, for all products, just something to think about.
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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by isoaker » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:23 am

I started writing more, but am opting against. Instead, I'll note the following:

Reasons BBT doesn't make bigger water blasters: price, cost, retailers, injunction, size of BBT (tens-of-millions company)
Reasons Hasbro can do what it does: Brand recognition, size of Hasbro (mutli-billion dollar company)

Even if Hasbro had a year where NO one bought a single Nerf Super Soaker or even Nerf product, they wouldn't go bankrupt since they have so many other brands under their belt. BBT does not have the luxury to gamble to the same extent.

As for the new 2015 Water Warrriors blasters, Is this eveything ?

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Re: Buzz Bee Water Warriors Losing Market Share?

Post by jja » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:52 am

The BBT products we know about for this year would all be reasonably competitive in my battles. Most of the more powerful blasters i fight with and against are Water Warriors. The Lightning and Sphinx are both incredibly powerful for our games (although hydro-power isn't currently a possible option for BBT). The Colossus 2 out performs everything else i have ever used (save my CPS 1000 and and a ~4x nozzle modded hydro-cannon).
Ultimately the strength of the Water warriors product line has increased interest in water blasters in general in my group and allowed us to transition from soak-fests to tactical game-play. I personally am happy with the development of the BBT blasters (the only minor complaint is I dislike the faux triggers on some of their piston blasters)
I would just like to see more of their products over here!

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