Dream Soaker: Autumn, 2006 - ^

[isoaker]

The Scenario: Company X has called you in as their consultant for a new water blaster line and wanted to know what sort of performance specs you would demand from a first-class water blaster. So long as the design is physically possible (an XP215-sized-soaker cannot push out a 100x blast with a 30 sec shot time), they were willing to try making and marketing it.

What would you recommend to them?

Stats to consider:
Height
Length
Width
Weight
Reservoir Capacity
PC Capacity (if needed)
Pump Volume
Nozzle types
Blaster Output
Shot Time (related to output and PC size)
Max Range (angled shot)
Additional Features

-----------------------------------------------

For sake of simplicity, modular soaker designs are not allowed as they was to create a single soaker design and do not have the ability to create modules for a do-it-yourself soaker-kit.

Reason for this thread is two-fold: one, it's to let people explain what they'd like to see; two, it's to give manufacturers goals to strive for that would make members of Soakerdom happier.

[Adrian]

Two versions, one QFD only, the other not. A Super Soaker about the size of an M1A SOCOM. Cylindrical pressure chamber dead center high of the gun. Thumbhole stock configuration, with the backend of the PC sitting about an inch above the top of the grip. Figure a supersoaker doesn't need a barrel, so you could (theoretically) make the PC quite long. The frame of the gun has rubberized seams, and you fill it through a hole in the back of the stock. All internals are encased in plastic so the water doesn't destroy them. You should be able to get one PC's worth out of the frame. Hand-shaped pump with a long draw-distance (sort of like a SPAS12).

It's the perfect gun. High cap. PC, lightweight, not designed around a spherical tank and PC. It'd look cool too. Pretty much like the Calypso in Outcasts.

Adrian

[SilentGuy]

A light, sleek soaker, with small height and width but fairly long. It would have a strong but relatively small spherical CPS PC near the front, with no extra height, and a long cylindrical reservoir behind it. The pump would be of somewhat high diameter as the bladder likely wouldn't be that strong, and it would be tracked. Any type of grip, thumbhole stock like a P90 would be fine--but with a ball valve for the trigger valve. Four choices of nozzles, with lamination akin to the Max-Ds that I so admire. And a strap, as this would likely be a sidearm.

Okay, so that's not very fair. There are tons of great designs in mind, I just went with the "light but good sidearm" theme for this one. It's very unlikely that these designs will be taken into consideration, as even you have argued that Hasbro doesn't really care, but it's a fun topic.

[HBWW]

I'll list a few of my ideas.

Parts and standards to the guns:

All guns have SC support and caps similar to the MaxI caps. The caps are attached by string, are normal threaded (didn't like how the MaxI caps were reversed), and can connect to a new backpack system.

The backpack system features light backpacks, holding around a gallon (like the MaxI backpacks), medium backpacks, holding over 2 gallons (like the CPS 3000/3200) and the heavy backpacks, holding over 3-3.5 gallons. Both medium and heavy backpacks have valves to the sides to allow you to give water to teammates, and all backpacks have straps to attach things like additional blasters, water balloons, water bottles for quick/alternate filling, etc. Obviously, the backpacks would be interchangeable between all blasters.

All blasters use well designed tracked pumps, which are efficiently designed for quick action. All pumps are "double sided", meaning they do twice the amount of work as a regular pump by pressurizing, regardless of which direction you move the pump in. The CPS 1000's pump was fairly fast to pump and there shouldn't be as much pump resistance as on the other guns. (the 1200's pump had much more resistiance, though obviously a pump did more on that than on the 1000)

All the blasters (that aren't pistols that fit in your pocket) have removeable straps and clips (no clips on larger guns, just on medium-light guns, like flash flood sized guns), and have nozzle selectors. All medium (around CPS 1000) or larger blasters have attachments for a small air pressure WBL.

WBL's are part of the arsenal, sold near stock guns, but due to safety, they're designed with less power and can still be aimed at people who are reasonable far enough from the barrel. (however, the power wouldn't be lowered so much that it'd be better to throw the balloon)

For blasters, I suppose the power can go up to around 2500, keeping it reasonable yet adequete for most to enjoy. They should be open to modding however, and easy to open up for users who want more power. It would be more supported by the manufacturer than now, but with adequete disclaimers, etc. to prevent people from trying to sue them when it's their own fault.

I had my own idea for triggers but I'm not sure it would work. It's basically where the finger trigger pulls on a string or something of that sort, the string wraps around the wheel like a pulley, and then it can vertically pull open something that blocks the nozzle. Of course, there is a spring to that piece to keep it up, and some rubber around to seal it well when not used. If such a trigger system would work, it would be a lot more reliable than the Max-D triggers yet offer the similar improvements in range and output.

For power, I would indeed like blasters that meet and even surpass the homemade guns, requiring safety equiptment, but that wouldn't be terribly realistic. I suppose the power could be capped around the 2500 level, just to be reasonable, but enough for most people to enjoy.

Of course, I would love to see stock guns brought to the level of homemades, but what I listed above was supposed to be realistic and possible for manufactures and the market. Not many would go to a store to spend too much money to pick up powerful guns, and it seems like most teens are much more into airsoft and paintball than water guns.

The larami guns seem to have set a fairly good standard (while the mods allowed for more), I think it would've done better if they were able to get around people who give CPS 2000's to 5 year olds and have them shoot each other's faces at point blank.

What I don't like about "too much power" is simply the amount of pumps that would be needed to get to it. It's the same with capacity, people can only carry so much water, and some fights demand that they carry more water than other fights. (i.e. woods vs backyard)

Now, my ideas are basically like larami's soakers except with more options on how much water the user wants to carry yet is able to choose between different options. The thing is, stuff like interchangable backpacks and fast fill caps simply weren't around back then.

I would type some more as I'm thinking of more than just this, but I'm a bit tired, and plus I went to "dream soaker line" instead of "dream soaker". Thing is, I want options, different water weapons have different uses and I haven't really tried enough weapons yet to favor one.



Edited By C-A_99 on 1162435717

[SilentGuy]

Two-stroke pumps are fairly heavy and inefficient--they're only worth it on sidearms for quick, effortless pumping--like pistols. Plus, tracked two-stroke pumps are going to be 3/2X the length of one-stroke tracked pumps, although the extra length is at the front when the grip is not.

A trigger system like that has been implemented before, and by Super Soaker. Ever heard of the pinch trigger? One of the weakest and most unreliable systems ever. There's a reason it got displaced. It was used in early Super Soakers, except for the ones with the lever butterfly/ball valves.

WBLs will never make it there.

[Rook]

@Silent Guy: I think C-A_99 is trying to describe a fast-action gate valve.

My design would be very similar to the Splashzooka, except with a few changes. The PC would be signifigantly smaller. It would have a high-capacity bacpack (at least two gallons), and it would also have a nozzle selector. I have an idea for a pump mechanism, but it's untested. The pump would use a dual-shaft system, meaning one pump with this system is equal to two pumps without it. This way, you could move more water in less space, and your arms wouldn't hurt from rapid pumping.

Didn't we already have a thread like this? Oh well. I hope to see Big Bee soon.

[isoaker]

Though I do support Hasbro and Super Soakers, Hasbro is not the only company that makes water blasters. There's still Buzz Bee Toys, Lanard, Mattel, and others who may gain insight from ideas. Besides, it never hurts to dream.

[Rook]

Unfortunately, I think Hasbro has the rights to Spherical and CPS bladders, don't they? Don't Water Warriors use rubber diaphragms?

[forestfighter7]

Cool thread,

My design would be a gun the size of a cps 1200 with a tracked pump. A simple looking gun, without any random plastic stuff plastered all over it to make it look good, 5x,10x, and 15x nozzles. Capacity wouldent be very important because tap-shooting should be used with this lightish gun. 45 feet of range at least. 6 secs of shot-time at most.

Basicly, what i want is a small powerfull gun. Kind of what a lot of people want.

[Adrian]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add, stats for my two guns. There'd be only one nozzle, an 8x. Distance would be roughly between 35 and 40 feet, 45 at the max. Don't know much about capacity - it'd be based on the size of the gun and how compact the internals are.

Here are the parts that make it up. Warning: Gratuitous gun pics ahead.
The pump from one of these:
http://spas12.com/spasgallery.htm
The length and heft of one of these:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/image ... 8Large.jpg
The back-end and body of one of these:
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/ga ... 0/1107.htm
Combined with the magazine and body of one of these:
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/ga ... 00/130.htm

Basically the one watergun specifically designed from the outset to make soccermoms cry.

Adrian



Edited By Adrian on 1162439269

[Dacca]

ok here's my two cents US. I was pretty pleased with the blazer and it's over all preformance, yet it still falls short of the water rifles of old. I'm hopeing that this year hasbro really steps it up after it pulled a shock and awe move after releasing the LONGSHOT. I got this thing and it's pretty serious. It's range may not be what youd expect from a sniper rifle but the internals and whole set up are pretty serious and (so far) sturdy. Its almost as if Hasbro's RD have been working on it for a while and i hope that transfers to the SS line. But in all honesty im not looking for anything fancy, just something to get the job done. I liked the size, feel and pc size of the blazer but still found it to be a bit lacking. all i would want is something the same size only a little more ergodynamic and a better reservoir. so pretty much the usual, more water farther :laugh:

[DX]

Height = don't care
Length = don't care
Width = don't care
Weight = don't care
Reservoir Capacity = don't care
PC Capacity (if needed) = don't care
Pump Volume = don't care
Nozzle types = don't care
Blaster Output = 3 nozzles: 3x, 7x, 12x
Shot Time (related to output and PC size) = don't care
Max Range (angled shot) = 50ft
Additional Features = No gimmicks, otherwise don't care

I only care about a few features. I don't like the whole 5x, 10x, 20x, thing. 3-4x, 7-8x, and 12-15x are a lot more battle practical. We especially need a middle nozzle optimized for range. 7-8x is often around the best output for range. I don't care in the slightest what the gun looks like, except for that it should have nothing gimmicky. Gimmicks are retarded. Yes they sell well, but they are retarded. Finally, give me 50ft for once. It's not hard. If I can get a crappy homemade to reach 45ft with a crappy pump and a crappy pc, you can build a nice stock soaker to reach 50. If there were more Professional Stage battle practical stock soakers, interest in water wars would be easier to spread.

[HBWW]

I don't like the idea of making them shaped more realistically as it puts limits on PC and reservoir size. Otherwise they can be shaped however they need to be as long as it's reasonable to carry and holds enough water for both the PC and reservoir. About the triggers, I guess it's just better for them to try to improve the Max-D triggers to make them less prone to break, especially when tap-shooting. If that's not possible, then the solution is simple: bring back the old triggers. For shot times, I just care about adequete PC sizes. Yes, you can always tap shoot, but not everyone does 1HK all the time, and in that case, PC size, output, and overall capacity take a big role. I kind of agree with Duxburian about the gimmicks. I only don't mind them if they help the blaster sell well and do not interfere with what the water gun should really be able to do, and don't interefere terribly with the price.

Another thing I haven't been a fan of was their awful advertising, such as "Great hydrodynamic hi-tech design for HUGE 750mL water supply!", "Powerful stream!", "over 35ft of range!", or "Crush the Competition!" (in that case you probably don't have competition) Unfortunately this is probably the only way to advertise and make money from most of the audience. Make it crap, make it gimmicky, and make it sound revolutionary.



Edited By C-A_99 on 1162498220

[Dacca]

i honestly dont mind soakers with a cool gimmic as long as
A. its cool enough to use or put on a soaker
good example: Flash flood
bad example: oozinator
B. normal powerful soakers are released so we have something to use.

[HBWW]

^The thing with the flash flood gimmick is that it would've been better to just have it as part of a nozzle selector. Both nozzles on the FF weren't done very well overall, and seem to be part of the reason it doesn't have good range.

[isoaker]

@ Dacca and C-A_99: you guys raise good points which would be great for discussion, but please not in this thread. Let's leave this one for stock soakers we can currently only dream of.

[SSCBen]

Height: 12 inches
Length: 3 feet
Width: 6 inches
Weight: 10 pounds (blaster unit), 23 pounds (backpack)
Reservoir Capacity: 10 L (backpack)
PC Capacity: 3000 mL (or less if you do not want to pump that much -- it's CPS afterall and less pumps does not mean less power)
PC type: Cylindrical rubber CPS
Pump Volume: > 75 mL
Nozzle types: 4 regular nozzles, one riot-blast
Blaster Output: 2X, 5X, 10X, 20X, 100X
Shot Time: 50s, 20s, 10s, 5s, 1s
Max Range (angled shot): 65 feet

This blaster is completely realistic. For some reason I feel I might nearly have it already however. A few things in my similar CPS water gun come a little short, namely range, which is a function of the pressure chamber thickness and the inner diameter. Any manufacturer however would have access to superior tubing, or at least the money to bulk order the better tubing that already exists.

If this water gun was made, I would buy it, use it, and be very happy. It would have a hard pump and be heavy, but that is perfectly fine for me. It also would somewhat keep younger people from using the water gun.

Unfortunately, I think Hasbro has the rights to Spherical and CPS bladders, don't they? Don't Water Warriors use rubber diaphragms?

Hasbro patented rubber based CPS systems several times. However, they were far from the first people to use rubber based water guns. There are many earlier and extremely similar patents. Hasbro lost a patent lawsuit against Ohio Arts about the ARM-4000 water gun apparently violating their patent rights. I believe that Buzz Bee Toys is playing on the safe side when it comes to potential lawsuits. Hasbro could easily outlast Buzz Bee in a lawsuit. Water Warriors water guns do use a diaphragm system which is slightly inferior to other CPS systems, harder to modify, and more prone to breakage. It does keep them out of the court however.

[SilentGuy]

Height: 12 inches
Length: 3 feet
Width: 6 inches
Weight: 10 pounds (blaster unit), 23 pounds (backpack)
Reservoir Capacity: 10 L (backpack)
PC Capacity: 3000 mL (or less if you do not want to pump that much -- it's CPS afterall and less pumps does not mean less power)
PC type: Cylindrical rubber CPS
Pump Volume: > 75 mL
Nozzle types: 4 regular nozzles, one riot-blast
Blaster Output: 2X, 5X, 10X, 20X, 100X
Shot Time: 50s, 20s, 10s, 5s, 1s
Max Range (angled shot): 65 feet

This blaster is completely realistic. For some reason I feel I might nearly have it already however. A few things in my similar CPS water gun come a little short, namely range, which is a function of the pressure chamber thickness and the inner diameter. Any manufacturer however would have access to superior tubing, or at least the money to bulk order the better tubing that already exists.

If this water gun was made, I would buy it, use it, and be very happy. It would have a hard pump and be heavy, but that is perfectly fine for me. It also would somewhat keep younger people from using the water gun.

Scary...even I've been brainwashed to the point where my hopes are all too low. High performance is possible, and your post proves it. Thanks for the wake-up call. But that's getting off topic too.

I would really just like to see more actual innovation on manufacturers' parts--not just more performance. Something along the lines of the Waterzooka LR. Things have gotten all too boring, and they've regressed in terms of technology, not just the performance.

[isoaker]

My own dreams:

Height: 1' 2"
Length: 2' 6"
Width: 6"
Weight: 4-6lbs
Reservoir Capacity: 4L soaker + 10L optional backpack
PC Capacity (if needed): 1.5L dual-cylindrical CPS chambers (750mL each)
Pump Volume: 75mL
Nozzle types: 3 stream + 1 riot blast
Blaster Output: 3x, 8x, 30x, 50x riot
Shot Time (related to output and PC size): 10s, 3s, 1s, <1s
Max Range (angled shot): 50'-60'
Additional Features: nozzle switch similar to that found on the CPS1500/CPS1700
- optional 10L backpack, but blaster can be used separately
- simple, clean lines like those found in the '98 CPS series
- darker grey colour scheme with highlights, rubberized grip, trigger, and pump
- snub-nozed look to front

Looking at what I described, it'd be a lighter version of Ben's design.

[WaterWolf]

I'm going to keep mine somewhat simpler for the sake of reality.

Height: 13 Inches.
Length: 28 Inches.
Width: 8 Inches.
Weight: 4 lbs.
Reservoir Capacity: 120 oz.
PC Capacity: Single cylindrical CPS PC, 40 oz.
Pump Volume: 1.5 oz track-pump.
Nozzle types: 3 Nozzles and a riot blast with no metal screen to break up the beam, resulting in a single, short and huge beam of water.
Blaster Output: 3x 7x and 50x riot.
Shot Time: 5 seconds, 3 seconds, 1 second or less.
Max Range (angled shot): 14 meters.
Additional Features: Smooth, flowing cover. A strong, reliable trigger, like those found on the old CPS guns. The reservoir concave at the back as a stock, to allow for steady aim with the kickback. QDF feature which allows you to charge the PC and fill the reservoir at the same time using the check-valve system. Has a tough foam cover on the grip, trigger and pump. Camouflage paint job.