Retail Large Cannon design proposal/suggestion thr

Discussions of all varieties of stock water guns and water blasters.
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Post by ZOCCOZ » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:58 pm

Alrighty then. Here is the second version of the previous design thread.

If you would like to see a new Large Cannon in the future(10xer or larger), feel free to post in this design proposal/sugestion thread. If anything else, its for fun.

Keep in mind: Retail has restrictions for available shelf space, so the rules of this little game would be max length is 23.5 inches(current largest retail soakers). At least for now untill we know the actual available max shelf space.

*Disclaimer*: Every ideas and concepts in this thread are open for the public and can not be legaly claimed by anyone as property. In other words, you are giving your ideas away to be possibly used by companies. If that is a problem for anyone, do not post or edit your post accordingly.

[Edit]: I should have mentioned it earlier that the proposed designs in this thread should be realistic for todays retail, regulations and manufacturer costs. So nothing that will rival or crush a CPS2000 or CPS 2500 with a Laserscope attached playing 50 cent "in the club". Suggestions should remain probable.




Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1144533480

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Post by Adrian » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:10 pm

Guessin' this is a Water Warriors thread, since Super Soaker isn't taking us into account these days and Big Bee is...

Four HydroPower (or whatever the WW equivalent of CPS is) around a single barrel. Guts shouldn't be too long, so the tank gets built around the back and top of the gun. Figure a Pirahna with 3 more pressure chambers on the sides and bottom of the barrel, and the tank dropping down to replace that extra handle on the back. Same width though, just make it a little longer to fill out the space requirements if necessary.

Barrel/muzzle will need to be restructured a little to allow for a 10x nozzle. 10x, 5x, and 3x ought to do it.

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Post by DX » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:20 pm

You really don't need more than one pressure chamber in order to support higher output. And you don't need a longer gun for more power, a bad, bad misconception! My 2nd smallest homemade is the size of a CPS 2100 and can support output in the 30x vicinity. Higher output doesn't even need excessive pressure, that homemade reaches 30x with 4-8 pumps.

So it really should not be hard to reach a mere 10x output in a small package. The reservoir does have to be either over or under some other area of the gun though. Somewhat like the set-up of the APR guns only with a casing.
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Post by SSCBen » Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:55 am

Everyone should forget CPS. I've been waiting for another Super Soaker 300. Air pressure is simple and while some may believe it is obsolete compared to other systems, it sure isn't. Drop off can be avoided with a good design. There's plenty of things you can do on top of that.

Summary of my demands:

- large PCs, over 1.5 liters
- large ID pumps to reduce the total pumping
- nozzle selector with a variety of orifice sizes, a distance nozzle, and a riot-blast
- use of a backpack (should shorten up the length)
- minimalist design, meaning no extra crap on the case to reduce size and price

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Post by isoaker » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:13 am

Interestingly, I find myself agreeing with Doom/Ben on this one, but with a slight twist. I really like the air-pressure system used in the Aqua-Master Pre-Charger system by Buzz Bee Toys. CPS and Hydropower, though are good means for getting decent power, end up limited in max. power since you can only make the chamber so strong. One cannot just continually add layers onto a chamber thinking each one is actually still contibuting to the available force.
With air-pressure, though, you can increase as long as the chambers and valves, themselves, can take it. Power then ends up limited by the tubing, casing, and valves. Thus, in a properly designed air-pressure-based soaker, you can achieve more oomph. However, what I don't like about directly pressurizing water is that higher pressures start pushing gas into the liquid. That and angles are limited since you don't want to tilt your blaster when firing and accidentally let the pressurized air out instead of the water. If the pressurized air was kept separate from the water side, you've got the best of both. The other system that does this are the XPS mods some people have done to their soakers.
I wonder if a combination system could be set up. Take a CPS or Hydro Power chamber and place it in a chamber that can be pressurized with air to a higher pressure. Pump water into the CPS/Hydro Power chamber and it should experience the pressure from both the elastic chamber and the air pressure (though this would not be a simple addition of pressures). Hook the system up to larger tubing, a flow laminator, and a well-sculpted nozzle and then you've got a soaker that can unleash rather potent streams. The main drawback I can see with the mixed CPS/Hydro Power and air-pressure system is that one cannot increase the air-pressure to high that it might rupture the rubber chamber while the nozzle is open. The sliding-plug system found in the Aqua Master line does not have this problem, but does rely on the plug and seals to remain secure as it slides in the PC tube.

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Post by scorpion » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:38 pm

What I would like to see are limitless. My best ideas are a double barrel splat blaster, a water balloon gun, something simmaliar to the max infusion system only it can be used for all guns made by buzz bee toys. The way to do that is take the hydra pak's backpack and put a screw on lid an both ends of the hose, One more addition to the precharger line that is bigger than the krypton and has a bigger PC. And make the rubber used in the hydro power system MUCH thicker.
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:15 pm

I have an idea for a large cannon that I believe would be perfectly practical for Buzz Bee Toys to make, with current available technology.

If you take three of the 400ml Hydro Power PC's used on the Blazer and Piranha, you have 1.2L of water in the pressure tank. The rubber might need to be made a bit thicker, but not too much. Then, you make a water tank that is 3500ml (slightly larger than the Krypton tank). You put a pump like that of the Blazer’s on it. You also put a non-electronic pressure gauge on it.

Now, for the nozzles. You make five nozzles as follows:
4x: Shoots 50 feet+
7x: Shoots 55 feet+
10x: Shoots 55 feet+
20x: Shoots 50 feet+
Riot Blast: Unloads the entire 1.2L tank in 1 second, sending out a huge blast that is 4x larger than the Flash Flood, since the PC is 4x as large. Range doesn’t matter on this one.

Please understand that 1x signifies 1 ounce/sec output.

Some of the members here may see this gun as too difficult to make, but I see it as perfectly practical with currently available technology to Buzz Bee Toys. I would pay $40-$50+ for a gun like this.

Here's how you can picture the gun. This gun would only be a couple inches longer than the Blazer, because of the extra PC. So picture a Blazer with an extra PC on the top, a good ol' non-electronic pressure gauge, and the five nozzles suggested above. The tank would be a good bit bigger than the Blazer's current tank, so take out the annoying curve in all BB gun's tanks., and make the tank either longer, or coming down the back where that extra handle is.




Edited By Hannibal on 1144520677
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"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

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Post by isoaker » Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:37 pm

I just wanted to insert a comment in here. While Buzz Bee Toys (and 'Big Bee') appear to be currently the ones interacting the most with the community and presently offer the greatest chance of attempting something more along the lines of what fan wants, I consider it a little worrisome for Soakerdom members to be so quickly abandoning earlier origins. I'm very grateful for what 'Big Bee' is doing, but let's not forget we're for soaking in general, not employees of any specific company.

For the consumer, 'brand' should not be as important as actual quality of product made. If a good soaker is made, would you guys complain if Hasbro, Buzz Bee Toys, Wild Water Planet, or someone else made it?

Just something to think about.

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:43 pm

For the consumer, 'brand' should not be as important as actual quality of product made. If a good soaker is made, would you guys complain if Hasbro, Buzz Bee Toys, Wild Water Planet, or someone else made it?


No, if it really was a good soaker, I wouldn't care one bit. But at this point, I don't see Super Soaker progressing in power and quality, and I do see Buzz Bee Toys doing that. Buzz Bee Toys is making good progress. In this thread, I don't think Hasbro cares much what we want in soakers. Buzz Bee Toys does, as evidenced by their products.

So essentially I'm saying that Big Bee may take into consideration some of the ideas in this thread, if not the individual soakers themselves. But Hasbro won't.
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by Wild Boys » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:07 pm

I would just be after guns that are similar to before, although I would want some difference.

It would be nice too see a 10x, 5x and 2x gun. Although I wouldn't really want range to be in the 50ft mark, I think its just a bit far to push for to me. I would be happy for ranges of about 35-45ft, as that is mostly what a lot of the heavy powerful CPS guns from Larami shot around, and the reason why some shot 50ft was just that there a fair few lucky ones there and there are still some out there probably.

Although, once again, I am starting to lean towards more high air pressure powered blasters like the SS 300 to be made, and since I like the SS 300 a lot, and with high power, high capacity air pressure chambers the stream from the SS 300 is very constant and doesn't fade off like smaller air pressure guns. Its CPS "like" and its cheaper to produce I'm guessing too. Come to think, high pressure air firing chamber are far more durable, since there is no rubber to wear, and the air chambers are just strong plastic that can take a lot of use at a lot of pressure. It would be good having single piece and backpack blasters using very high air pressure firing chambers like on the SS 300. So you could have a single piece blaster with two high presuure air chambers, and perhaps a backpack blaster with something like 4, both types still being very CPS effective and good value for money.




Edited By Wild Boys on 1144531429

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Post by ZOCCOZ » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:11 pm

I got designs now for both Water warriors and Super Soaker. While I am usualy more imaginative with my designs, I had to move within the restrictions and typical styles of the companies. In other words try to make it as probable as possible. While I prefer 20Xers with good length and large tank size, it seems improbable for todays retail:


Diaprhram Powered Cannon:
Has a 10X, 5X and 2X nozzle. The chambers are scorpion sized, and should have enough space to have a good 3-4 second 10X shot with around 800 ml. The materials in those chambers are made strong enough to shoot a 10X stream as far as 35-40 feet with a well laminar flow. 23.5 inches long.
Image


Diaphram Backpack:
Has a 10X, 5X and 2X nozzle. The materials in those 3 chambers residing in the backpack are made strong enough to shoot a 10X stream as far as 35-40 feet with a well laminar flow. Same size as the Hydrapack.
Image


Air Pressure Pool Pumper:
Same like others here, I have been promoting the ss300 since 1995. So this one is somewhat similar.
It features a 10X and 5X nozzle. It has about the same size of a Blazer, yet has no tank. Instead it has a 2 Litre Air Pressure PC. It doesn't come with a backpack to safe space, so it works like a Pool Pumper. Alternativly it could get attached to the new Hydra Pack(sold seperatly). It should be able to reach up to 45 feet with a good laminar flow.
This one is probably my favorite design in my bunch here. 23.5 inches long.
Image


CPS Cannon:
Has a 10X and a 5X nozzle. Cylindrical CPS chamber fits 500 ml, while the Tank features 2.3 litre. Shoots up to 35 feet. 19 inches long.
Image


CPS Cannon with Aquapack:
Has a 10X and a 5X nozzle. Cylindrical CPS chamber fits 600 ml, while being connected to an Aquapack. Shoots up to 35 feet. 22 inches long
Image




Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1144532422

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Post by isoaker » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:23 pm

Hannibal wrote:But at this point, I don't see Super Soaker progressing in power and quality, and I do see Buzz Bee Toys doing that. Buzz Bee Toys is making good progress. In this thread, I don't think Hasbro cares much what we want in soakers. Buzz Bee Toys does, as evidenced by their products.

So essentially I'm saying that Big Bee may take into consideration some of the ideas in this thread, if not the individual soakers themselves. But Hasbro won't.

These are the sort of assumptions that are the things I'd like to avoid. Hasbro's main fault is a lack of consistent communication with this aspect of its consumer base. However, making the statement that they don't care is simply not true. The release of the Max Infusion series, allowing a detachable additional reservoir to be added and swapped between soakers is something that many of us have wanted for a long time. With respect to making more powerful soakers, I also believe Hasbro as well as Buzz Bee Toys would like to create larger, more powerful soakers (again). The main thing preventing large soakers isn't lack of technology or poorer designs, rather marketability and willingness of retailers to carry more expensive water guns.

I just don't like some statements being made without knowing or understanding that there are many more factors that have lead to the reduction in soaker power than just 'lack of caring for the consumer'.

This sort of thread has been around pretty much every year. If one is going to slam one particular company for not making 'what we want', shouldn't all be slammed similarly?

I prefer being positive about things, though. That's why I asked ZOCCOZ to re-create this thread to not be brand specific. 'WE' want better soakers. Whoever makes 'em should remain irrelevant to us.

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Post by DX » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:40 pm

I don't care if it's just one nozzle, but I have to see something over 50' or forget about it. You can always make the output higher via drilling or nozzle mod. You can always increase capacity with backpacks or reservoir expansion. But you can't always increase the range. Stock soakers need to get competitive again and locally that means shoot farther, whatever type of technology it takes.

Is it just me, or does it seem like only the range people have been ignored? You don't even need great power to achieve great ranges, you could hit 50 with a small, lackadaisical stream and it would be totally harmless. You don't need a big gun to do it, you don't need more than one pc to do it, you don't even need more than 10 pumps to do it, you don't have to drastically alter current designs to do it, you don't need to go over existing safety regulations to do it, you just need to want to do it. And since nobody wants to do it, then why should I want to buy stock soakers? It doesn't make sense. As soon as I heard the 2006 info, I was like, aww, forget this, hopefully 2007 will be better. Everyone gets something good from the companies except Duxburian, like that hasn't happened before. If 2007 isn't better the personal boycott will continue until whenever. If there are no attempts at longer range by 2007, why bother anymore? Might as well give up stock forever and move on already, something I would have already done except for that tiny, little glimmer of hope that says maybe someone out there somewhere will sometime realize that these 2003-2006 weak kiddie toys are killing a once large and glorious wing of Soakerdom?

EDIT: Yes I have become notably more cynical than I once was, mainly since I see all my ideals, everything I stand for morally, politically, logically, etc. all going down the drain. I feel like there is little I can do to stop it other than step up the usual pessimistic rhetoric. You can't fake optimism that has already been killed. :(




Edited By Duxburian on 1144533443
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Post by Big Bee » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:58 pm

There are some very very good ideas here. I think we need to re-look at our direction for 2007. Please keep them coming, we may have something here.

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:59 pm

isoaker_com wrote:
Hannibal wrote:But at this point, I don't see Super Soaker progressing in power and quality, and I do see Buzz Bee Toys doing that. Buzz Bee Toys is making good progress. In this thread, I don't think Hasbro cares much what we want in soakers. Buzz Bee Toys does, as evidenced by their products.

So essentially I'm saying that Big Bee may take into consideration some of the ideas in this thread, if not the individual soakers themselves. But Hasbro won't.

These are the sort of assumptions that are the things I'd like to avoid. Hasbro's main fault is a lack of consistent communication with this aspect of its consumer base. However, making the statement that they don't care is simply not true. The release of the Max Infusion series, allowing a detachable additional reservoir to be added and swapped between soakers is something that many of us have wanted for a long time. With respect to making more powerful soakers, I also believe Hasbro as well as Buzz Bee Toys would like to create larger, more powerful soakers (again). The main thing preventing large soakers isn't lack of technology or poorer designs, rather marketability and willingness of retailers to carry more expensive water guns.

I just don't like some statements being made without knowing or understanding that there are many more factors that have lead to the reduction in soaker power than just 'lack of caring for the consumer'.

This sort of thread has been around pretty much every year. If one is going to slam one particular company for not making 'what we want', shouldn't all be slammed similarly?

I prefer being positive about things, though. That's why I asked ZOCCOZ to re-create this thread to not be brand specific. 'WE' want better soakers. Whoever makes 'em should remain irrelevant to us.

:cool:

OK, so I confess I have some bad presumptions about Hasbro. I don't really care what company makes the guns I want, as long as they are the guns I want. What I am saying is that I see BB making the guns I want, while I don't see Hasbro. The Max-Infusion sysem is a great thing, but when the actual blasters are bad, it makes the entire system worthless. I want to remain optimistic, but it is really hard with the the way soakers are going these days.

Duxburian , I agree on the range there. I would take a normal nozzle if it shot for a long distance, like 55 feet. 55 feet isn't unsafe, nor is it hard or expensive for the companies to make. When a gun like the Overload shoots "Up to 30 feet!" I won't be getting it. If that same Overload shot 50 feet, I'd get it almost for sure.

ZOCCOZ, great blasters there. Those are very similar to what I'd want, but lacking range. Range is perfectly possible to add.




Edited By Hannibal on 1144533786
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by Big Bee » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:03 pm

Duxburian wrote:Is it just me, or does it seem like only the range people have been ignored? You don't even need great power to achieve great ranges, you could hit 50 with a small, lackadaisical stream and it would be totally harmless. You don't need a big gun to do it, you don't need more than one pc to do it, you don't even need more than 10 pumps to do it, you don't have to drastically alter current designs to do it, you don't need to go over existing safety regulations to do it, you just need to want to do it.
Wow, maybe you know something we do not. I would love to make a gun that shot over 50' safely. If you have some design information, please let me have it, I would be very happy to use it. This has been a goal of ours for a long time, we just haven't found a practical way to do it........Go ahead, put your ideas where your complaints are......I'll listen, and I can always learn.

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Post by isoaker » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:06 pm

All fairness aside, if Buzz Bee Toys and 'Big Bee' can create something we'd appreciate, I'm definitely all for it!

It's a tough balancing act for me since, well, I don't want to have the group be overly-brand specific though I realize that there are good reasons why presently Buzz Bee Toys is generally preferred since they are the ones interacting the most with the community.

Of course, optimally for Soakerdom, a bunch of manfacturers start pushing out water cannons and there be a good selection to choose from. :goofy:

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Post by ZOCCOZ » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:15 pm

Hannibal wrote:ZOCCOZ, great blasters there. Those are very similar to what I'd want, but lacking range. Range is perfectly possible to add.

Thanks, I would like to add more range, but then its no longer probable which is one of the criterea of this thread. Other than a new nozzle lamination I would not know how to safely increase range. The CPS1500 didn't go past 40 feet upon model average. The suggestions have to remain within retail and manufactrers regulations(child safety laws-we can blame dumb kids who are constantly getting dumber for that ), otherwhise its another unrealistic wish list for Soaker-Santa(Granted, if he would exists I wouldn't mind putting out milk and cookies for that dude). Creativity within Realism and compromise are the key words in this thread.




Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1144535147

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Post by DX » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:31 pm

The two smallest of my air pressure homemades reach ranges in the mid to upper 40s, with 4 pumps each. The pressure chambers were built too small to get any more pressure and water in. But that shows that you don't necessarily need high pressure to get pretty decent range. You just need good-sized, well designed pressure chambers feeding in a straight line to [a] nozzle sized specifically for range using simple math and tests.

The way I make pressure chambers is obviously different than the way companies do, but if a company made their air pressure chambers with the same concept/shape in mind, that would be really cool. The pressure chambers I make have a tee in the center with a top piece equal in size to the pieces left and right of the tee. This causes the air to rise to the top and out of the way. The whole bottom/middle of the chamber is water, and it all gets fired in a straight line to the nozzle, a good, linear design that helps improve range. You can also fire this at an angle while still keeping the linear flow, something you can't do with most air pressure guns.

For determining the best nozzle size for range, I use Doom/Ben's Streams article on Super Soaker Central. Some fairly simple math allows you to narrow down the optimal size for an individual gun. Conical nozzles would also be something to look into for improving linear flow.

Well designed pcs can also reduce the drop-off of air pressure guns, so I think that with all this you could get a 50 foot, small to medium sized, safe stream. A big misconception these days is that you need a big stream to get good range. That isn't true, since my best ranges come on streams that are about 3-7x.

The people who determine the safety standards really ought to see a powerful gun before they call others dangerous. Compared to some of the things I have made/modified, pretty much every stock soaker looks harmless in comparison. 50 ft can be done in more than one style. They think automatically that long range = dangerous, so something should be done to correct this. I can make 50 ft streams that move 4 times faster than a stock one, those could be considered dangerous when compared to a 50 ft stream moving at normal velocity and with less power behind it.

Really the same can be applied to output as well. You can have a 10x stream moving double as fast as one at normal velocity, and which do you think would be tagged as dangerous? I've made a 30x that moved so slowly that not only is it not dangerous, but it is laughable due to the slowness and gentleness of the water. :laugh:

The CPS1500 didn't go past 40 feet upon model average.


I could get the measuring tape out right now and show you one that does. I've never seen a 1500 that couldn't clear 45 angled, measured to the middle of the largest puddle, nevermind the last drop.

Range is also not an absolute stat. There are several types of long range streams, as there are even more types of high output streams. 50 ft for example can be achieved with low pressure with high speed, high pressure with normal speed, high pressure with high speed, no pressure with high speed, no pressure with low speed, etc. Each of these produces a different style stream, each with a varying level of power.

Just like with output: normal pressure with low speed for 10 seconds can make a 10x stream. High pressure with high speed for less than half a second can also make a 10x stream. No pressure with normal speed [basically a CPS gun] for 3 seconds could also make a 10x stream. You can't think of these stats in such absolute terms as "high range = not probable." Otherwise you miss the concept of making high range or high output safely simply by switching how it is created. Forget realism and compromise, you are shutting the doors of logic and reasoning and therefore not helping the cause. People overall love to think in absolutes and think it can replace logic. Nothing can ever replace logic and thinking in other ways to come up with solutions that still achieve the original goal in its original form. Now that's the battle worth fighting. :cool:




Edited By Duxburian on 1144536881
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Post by ZOCCOZ » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:55 pm

Duxburian wrote:
The CPS1500 didn't go past 40 feet upon model average.


I could get the measuring tape out right now and show you one that does. I've never seen a 1500 that couldn't clear 45 angled, measured to the middle of the largest puddle, nevermind the last drop.
But would your model be the "model average".If you could give me 3 independant sorces who used a tape measurer and got beyond 40 every time with 10X, then I supose the average would be higher then.

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