Buzz Bee Toys/Water Warriors - News, Suggestions and Other Info

[Shadowstrike Prime]

"What prevents you from selling water guns in the sporting goods section, with the paintball and airsoft guns?"

Common sense.

[Hyperion330]

Perhaps it'd put the pressure on Hasbro (if they care, of course) to start listening to us or at least take greater measures to make better soakers.

I'd say the 2005 lineup shows they've been listening to us.

Couldn't agree with you more M4. As I have said all along since the beginning of 2005, Hasbro reads the forums in soakerdom for general ideas on what people may like with water guns. Of course they spend tons of money for an engineering team, but the inspiration has to start somewhere. It starts looking at the sales and designs of last year, and it also starts with ideas from Soakerdom. They are listening to us, period. There is no way around it. If Hasbro could make everyone happy, I am sure they would.

They listen to us, but not the extent at which it helps us much. Hasbro was already pressured to put CPS back in; lots of people are well aware of the old CPS soakers (not just us). Hasbro probably realized that they would lose a few customers to disappointment. They probably draw a few little tidbits from our wishlists, but all that stuff we want... We still want it, so we will still be adamant. It's not too unreasonable. Nibor put forth this idea on SM: Hasbro makes one or two large CPS cannons and they put it under the CPS line (not STE) and let Hasbro continue the ST/STE lines. We're satisfied (for the most part) and they get to reap whatever profits they're getting from the ST/STE stuff. Plus, if the cannons do sell well, it could launch the start of more cannons in the future. Like an experiment lineup.

[vaporizer]

Perhaps it'd put the pressure on Hasbro (if they care, of course) to start listening to us or at least take greater measures to make better soakers.

I'd say the 2005 lineup shows they've been listening to us.

Couldn't agree with you more M4. As I have said all along since the beginning of 2005, Hasbro reads the forums in soakerdom for general ideas on what people may like with water guns. Of course they spend tons of money for an engineering team, but the inspiration has to start somewhere. It starts looking at the sales and designs of last year, and it also starts with ideas from Soakerdom. They are listening to us, period. There is no way around it. If Hasbro could make everyone happy, I am sure they would.

They listen to us, but not the extent at which it helps us much. Hasbro was already pressured to put CPS back in; lots of people are well aware of the old CPS soakers (not just us). Hasbro probably realized that they would lose a few customers to disappointment. They probably draw a few little tidbits from our wishlists, but all that stuff we want... We still want it, so we will still be adamant. It's not too unreasonable. Nibor put forth this idea on SM: Hasbro makes one or two large CPS cannons and they put it under the CPS line (not STE) and let Hasbro continue the ST/STE lines. We're satisfied (for the most part) and they get to reap whatever profits they're getting from the ST/STE stuff. Plus, if the cannons do sell well, it could launch the start of more cannons in the future. Like an experiment lineup.

Make a CPH, and send it to Hasbro, and tell them to make it a casing and market it. I wouldn't care how expensive it is, as long as it gets 35+ feet for range.

[emperor_james]

I dont know about a max psi, but I don't want a gun that is like 500000 joules

BTW joules are a unit of heat energy, not pressure. And 500,000 J is not a lot of heat energy. It takes more than that to boil a pot of water. Anyway, the problem today is that you can sue for anything. Oh, is that coffee too hot? Sue them. Oh, is there a "risk" with that soaker, even though/just because someone acted stupidly with it? Sue them. People are going WAY overboard with all this safety stuff these days. If there is a psi limit, it better not be too unreasonable. 20 psi is roughly the cap in commercially manufactured soakers, but I have no idea whether there is a regulation.

I wasn't talking about the pressure, I was talking about the energy of the water, which can be measured in joules. Joules are a unit of more than just heat energy.

[NiborDude]

Perhaps it'd put the pressure on Hasbro (if they care, of course) to start listening to us or at least take greater measures to make better soakers.

I'd say the 2005 lineup shows they've been listening to us.

Couldn't agree with you more M4. As I have said all along since the beginning of 2005, Hasbro reads the forums in soakerdom for general ideas on what people may like with water guns. Of course they spend tons of money for an engineering team, but the inspiration has to start somewhere. It starts looking at the sales and designs of last year, and it also starts with ideas from Soakerdom. They are listening to us, period. There is no way around it. If Hasbro could make everyone happy, I am sure they would.

To tell you the truth, I don't know whether or not Hasbro does read our boards. I'm sure they have visited us, but I don't know if they take our suggestions. The only way we will know, is if someone in Hasbro registers and lets us know. If they do, it would be kind of nice for them to let us know. HINT HINT, HASBRO?

[ANNIHILATOR 2]

Alot of over estimating themselves on boards. Some people almost believe Hasbro fired their marketing staff to listen to board members. I will say what I said on SSCentral. Hasbro didn't bring back CPS because of complains at messege boards. Board members make 0.0000...% of the consumer market and are therfore irrelevant to Hasbro. Hasbro's marketing and engeneering department that is financed with millions of dollars to come up with their own ideas, happend to decide to re-introduce CPS in the larger models to compete with the rival brands larger models. Again, messege boards have nothing to do with it. Its like a dog owner forgeting to give the dog a bath and the flees taking credit for it becasue it happend to go their way.

Also, I am wondering why many complain? A while ago, we had a nozzle poll where my 20X vote was a clear minority, and the majority who voted had 2X-5X and medium sized(small sized for some of us). Thats what Hasbro and Buzz Bee happen to bring out this year. I would even say, that large number of board members belong to the main consumers who buy cheap and small-medium sized blasters in reality.
Seems to me, that some want every size of soaker on the market even though they just really want to buy the small ones. It doesn't work that way. Its like ordering something and not buying it.


Plus Hasbro's agenda starts to move away from this topic.

People suggestions should be directed to move within the macro-cosmic borders. Small and low production cost blasters that would attract primarily 99.99999...% of the consumer market, wich don't include hardcore soaker users.

For example, a question to Big Bee would be, how prifitable is the electonic concept in the blasters. Does it statisticaly actually attrakt consumers and make up for the additional production cost? Would not leaving out the electronics and therby lowering retail prices increase sales?



Edited By ANNIHILATOR 2 on 1113952718

[emperor_james]

While I agree with most of what A2 said, I actually think that large blasters would actually sell pretty well. Hasbro hasn't stopped selling good sized guns, actually, just minimized their power. Guns like the Triple Agressor aren't small (though admittedley smaller than most of the CPS series), they are just hopelessly weak. The FF and Devastator are somewhat better,due to the CPS technology, but are also more expensive, proportionately, which is annoying, though might really be a good sign. I would like a Triple Agressor sized gun, as long as it is proportionately poowerful.

[Hyperion330]

True, I don't buy the huge cannons. Unfortunately, I came along into soaking after the cannons were as rare as silver coins found off the coast of Florida, and just as expensive. So I never had the choice. If they came out, I'd probably buy just one or two, but that makes me a customer. Which is another dollar in their pocket.

As for the nozzle poll, most people voted for 5x, 8.5x, and 10x. Those are larger than the standard right now. I'm pretty sure very few people voted for 2x. Right now, you may think, "The Flash Flood is 12x, so it's fine!" No. That's not a stream, that's a riot blast, fine for close range, total crap for anything else. We want (or at least I want) streams that can push out that much, that last for at least 2 seconds (10x, that is) with numerous nozzle options, and with reasonable range, so they're overall useful and impressive and fun. Then I'll cough up some $$$.

It's not that unreasonable, either. Make one or two CPS cannons. Then let them make their other stuff. We'll be happy. They'll be happy. Plus, like I said earlier, if these cannons are popular (which they very well could be, considering that, though kids care more about size/gimmicks than performance, a huge mega-drenching shot of water is pretty darn impressive) it could pave the way for more.

Now, if you've been keeping up with what I've written, it seems I've changed my position from pro-Hasbro to anti-Hasbro. It's rather true. I've looked at what I've written, looked at the other factors in my decision, and decided to change my mind. I'll try to have as much fun with what we have now, but hopefully, improvements are coming in the future. Just clarification. Maybe I'm just weird.



EDIT: Continuation of arguments.



Edited By Hyperion330 on 1113966852

[isoaker]

Just a reminder, this is a Buzz Bee Toys/Water Warriors thread. Discussion on Hasbro, though important, is rather out of place here.

Secondly, whether or not what is said on the boards actually sways the manufacturers to make changes is not so much true as it is irrelevant. Fact is I *KNOW* that Buzz Bee Toys and Hasbro people read the boards. Ideas on boards can lead to discussions behind closed doors. How much these ideas actually play in making changes is likely minimal, but it sure doesn't hurt doing what we can to let the manufacturers know at least what some of us would like to see in future water blasters.

Despite the noticeable downturn in soaker power from 1998-2004, we're now hopefully seeing an upswing again that will continue on. There are many factors that caused the changes so taking it out on the manufacturers without knowing the full story is rather unfair. Just need to keep doing what we can to try to get them to steer for better products which will help us and hopefully benefit them as well.

[emperor_james]

Isoaker has a point. However, what I am asking is why the Blazer is not as powerful as old CPS guns that were similarly sized. I am mostly thinking about the CPS 2100 here. On the Blazer, the largest nozzle, which is a hair larger than the CPS 2100 nozzle, shoots about 20 feet. Not the case with the CPS 2100's stream. Assuming that the 2100 does not require a gun safe, what is the cause for this difference in power?

[hunter]

ther design. the 2100 has better stream lamination, and probably stronger latex rubber.

[emperor_james]

ther design. the 2100 has better stream lamination, and probably stronger latex rubber.

Obviously. What I mean is why it was made so much weaker, not why it actually is weaker.

[isoaker]

29 days from this post.

After getting a chance to talk face-to-face with 'Big Bee', I asked him directly how much time is there between the release of this year's line-up in stores before suggestions and improvement ideas are needed such that they can be considered for being implemented in next year's line.

29 days, then things get set in motion for next year's lines' production.

Thus, over the next 29 days, any feedback and/or thoughts you guys have on the various Water Warriors products posted on these forums can be considered for next year. Of course, he can't make any promises on what can or can't be done, but without feedback, they'd be making their own guesses.

While I want members here to remain open to all forms of soakers out there from Super Soakers to Water Warriors to Storms and X-streams, etc , this particular opportunity in possibly being able to help improve one line-up is something I don't want to miss out on. As well, this may help pave the way to getting a chance to more directly influence other lines in the future as well.

Soak on!

[Adrian]

Dedicated, specialized soakers are my only major suggestion. I can do everything with a Pirahna or Blazer or Lightning or CPS 2100 - why would I want to buy more than one? On the other hand, soakers that specialize only in one area would theoretically generate more revenue as people would need to buy more than one for the complete soaking experience, or would buy a few extra to augment their primary "do everything" soaker. A heavy, low capacity pistol with only one huge nozzle; short, low capacity, short range shotgun with insane output; a long barreled, long range rifle; all you really need to do is visit a gun store and take a look at the specialization taking place on the racks and shelves - hunting handguns, combat shotguns, long range target rifles...the biggest source of inspiration, is IMO, already down at the local sports store.

WW already has the cool shape/design thing nailed.

Adrian

[SharpObjects]

Adrian made a very good point. Although it seems there are too many close range soakers, a sniper soaker would do some good, anything with a range of at least 45-50ft without being fatal. The only gripe about the design is how wide the bigger soakers are, and the nozzle selection is good, but I'd like to see an 8x-15x. Anywhere in that size. Keep going with the tracked pumps, very nicely done.

~SO

[DX]

Like Adrian, I would also love to see specialized soakers. I am one of the toughest customers out there, having passed on soakers made after 2002. If you can get even me to walk into a store and buy next year's line, then that's a huge accomplishment. The main thing that keeps me from buying the soakers of today is range. Is it possible to add in some more range, possibly even to the 50ft. mark, and sacrifice power to defuse "safety" critics? Stock soakers are nowhere near dangerous. 50ft. could raise complaints, but those people have never held a truely powerful and dangerous soaker. Today's streams are "gentle" compared to what can be made or modified in the basement. The only other thing I ask for is at the least one soaker with a "bare bones" design. AKA only what is necessary for the gun to operate. This kind of soaker could still be made to look attractive to mainstream and young buyers, if there is a quality development team.

Currently WW has my full support, since Hasbro probably isn't willing to take even the smallest risk.

[Aquarius]

Is it possible to add in some more range, possibly even to the 50ft. mark, and sacrifice power to defuse "safety" critics?

No, since increased velocity at the nozzle would be required as range increased. This would be accomplished by increased air or bladder pressure and/or reducing back pressure at the nozzle. :O



Edited By Aquarius on 1117236067

[Shadowstrike Prime]

My suggestions:

- I'd love for the trigger grips to be alittle larger in next year's lineup. Right now my pinky finger has no place to go but underneath the handle, and while that's ok, I really like being able to get tight grip around the whole thing when I'm running around with a blaster.

- I remember seeing the XXP-275 on TV when I was little, and being amazed by the dual barrelled concept. Since it's something we haven't seen for awhile, I think a dual barrelled blaster would be really neat to have; especially with modern CPS like tech behind it. Hmm? :p

- One thing I'm not crazy about are the electronic pressure gauges; they're well executed, but in a daytime battle (when most battles take place) it's difficult to see where your power level is, and having to trigger the guage can be alittle uncomfortable. I'd really enjoy a switch to conventional gauges.

Now, my thought would be make a small subline of 2, 3 blasters at most geared towards night battles; you could give them darker colour schemes and (if it's cost effective) glow in the dark paint applications, since the lighted gauges are going to give away your position anyway.

- Keep on making larger and more powerful blasters; test the limits of where it's feasable to go. Focus on trying to make at least one portable hose.

[isoaker]

My thought so far:

Electronic pressure gauges are cute, but I'd still lean towards soakers not needing batteries unless it's for a flashlight for night fights (i.e. a soaker for the wars SSP mentioned )

If an electronic gauge is to be used, would it be possible to either completely remove the activation trigger (perhaps just tie the gauge activation to when the pump is active?) or to move the activation trigger from the back side of the grip to a 2nd trigger position below the first one, but perhaps recessed in a bit. A 1-2 trigger would be more comfortable and not dig into one's hand as much,especially after prolonged use.

Specialized blasters: from a longer-ranged (but perhaps lightened output for safety) sniper-type soaker (50'+ if possible) and a riotblast/shotgun type soaker, both of which would compliment a standard all-purpose soaker (as Adrian noted)

Optional additional capacity: since the larger soakers all have tethered screw-caps of about the same size, diameter, and threading pattern, would it be possible to make some sort of universal Water Warriors backpack reservoir that would be screwed into the cap area to expand a soaker's capacity by somewhere between 3-8 additional litres of water? Such a pack should have a valve on the hose near the connection point to prevent spillage when attaching to the reservoir of the soaker. As this reservoir would be a large piece of plastic with some tubing and straps, I could imagine that you guys might be able to make 'em fairly easily and cheaply (heck, take the Hydra Pak's backpack mould, strip the inside, and replace the gun-portion with a reservoir-adapter with a hand-turned ball-valve and you'd have version #1 of the expanded reservoir )

For all blasters with multiple nozzles, please continue to improve on how nozzle selectors have gone i.e. the original Blazer to this year's Blazer. Nozzle sizes should be different enough with at least one smaller one (~1mm diameter) for conservation and a larger one for heavier streams. For 3 nozzles, I'd still lean towards having one nozzle as a spray, fan, or riot-blast type nozzle instead of a mid-sized stream. 4 nozzled-selectors could have 2-3 stream settings with 1-2 spray settings depending on the capacity of the firing chamber. As well, if possible, could nozzles be marked in such as way that one doesn't need to look at the front of the blaster to determine the one selected? Some sort of clear engraving or colouring on the top-side of the nozzle selector when a nozzle is rotated into firing position would be ideal (i.e. a circular raised bits on a smooth flat area reflecting the size of the nozzle selected as well as raised patterns reflecting the sort of spray pattern selected). This could easily be done even if it is the bottom nozzle that fires since so long as part of the top-size of the nozzle selector (even just the round area) is visible from the top of the blaster, the engraving could go there. Engravings/markings would not need to be on the actual nozzle stubs, themselves.

Some thoughts for now! More probably later...

[ANNIHILATOR 2]

Prity much my suggestions are these to Buzz Bee:

1. First and foremost, focus on the elements that made the sales rise in the past years statistics. Then these concepts should be developed further.

2. If the electronics does not increase or decrease the sales, I would suggest to drop it, since it jacks up production costs.

3. Find out an estimate of what the highest pressure on a watergun would be that is allowed by the child safety regulations, and then go with that as max power.

4. Find out an estimate of what the max shelve space space availabe would be and then go with that as a max size. Perhaps a more economical way of reducing package size would add a few inches.

5. Three - Five DIAMPHRAM Chambers to give a good 5-10 X shot. Depending of course the max pressure allowed according to safety regulations. A 20X nozzle would be nice, but that probably alreday surpasses the allowed pressure amount.

Summary:Basicaly production cost should be as profitable as posibble, as should be a low retail price to draw in the general buyers. The profits should make up for the enhanced performance production costs.
In short, quality has not always to do with the retail price. (Example Blazer = $19.99 CAN, Tripple Agressor = $29.99 CAN)