The Max D System Must Die

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marauder
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The Max D System Must Die

Post by marauder » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:00 pm

Just recieved an email from my brother:
The trigger on the devestater broke yesterday when me and Will were fighting.
To those of you who don't fight that often/haven't been around for a long time I can tell you that Max Ds don't hold up. I've owned 2 Aquapack Devastators, a Flash Flood, 2 Liquidators, an Arctic Shock, a Secret Strike, and 2 Arctic Blasts. Out of those guns only the Arctic Blasts are still around. Two of my cousins owned Max D 5000s and those are both broken now. My brother and 2 of my friends had Max D 6000s and all of those are broken. The Devastator and Flash Flood are 2 of my favorite soakers, it's just a shame that they had to use the Max D system.
I can't tell you how much I hate the Max D system. I take good care of my guns and my other soakers almost never break. I am thinking about writing a petition and sending it to Super Soaker. The ironic thing is that I got to talk to Steven Menow the year before the Max D system came out. Menow is credited with several super soaker patents. I'm not sure if he still works for Super Soaker. We talked about good names for upcoming soakers and a new "further shooting" line. I even suggested the Liquidator name (based off of an old gun I had) and I remember us talking about the name Flash Flood. I didn't realize that I would come to hate this new system so much.
I am thinking of writing a letter/petition to Hasbro about getting rid of the Max-D line or at least releasing a few higher end soakers that use the old xp style firing system. I would use a much more respectful tone in my letter than I have here. What do you guys think? Good idea? Think it will matter much? Would you sign?
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by HBWW » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:03 pm

If I talked to them, I'd get into the technicality of how they could use better springs, but it probably won't make a difference.

The poor springs they use however, are not much different than their decision to re-release the 4100 back in 2004 with a trigger piece specifically and intentionally designed to break after a few uses. Hasbro has a history of designing guns specifically to break after a season or less of use. As for WW's, I've never seen any break, but they do leak as the trigger wears out. They might have eradicated the problem on the newer guns.

But to be honest, I like the stream lamination improvements offered with ball valves. Without them, current blasters would be performing at XP level. The Max-D 6000 is able to push out thicker streams faster than the XP 310 because of the ball valve. The problem is not the valve, or even the Max-D system, it's the spring and that applies to both WW's and SS's. They need to stop using thin, ridiculously cheap quality springs that rust and break.

But given, the Max-D system puts more strain on the springs, thus even a decent quality spring could wear out over time. (unless it's pretty big) The solution is a simpler system like what WW uses, but with a good, responsive spring.

I'll sign a petition to do away with Max-D. I honestly like the WW triggers better, even if some of them tend to have problems. (being leaks and sluggish trigger action, both of which can be fixed with better springs) While the Max-D triggers never have the sluggish movement problem, they do require more force to pull, thus negating any tap shot advantage.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by teamfear » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:12 pm

I'd Sign it.
Broken Max D's
Triple shot
Artic blast x3
Flash floodx2
Liquidator

I like the recoil of pull valves. They seem to hold up longer than max d valves. Hasbro makes their guns break after a few months to make more money. Its a cheap world.

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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by isoaker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:20 am

I'm all for more durable trigger systems, for sure! That is one area I've heard the community rant about for some time now and have been telling who I can in the manufacturing side about the problem, trying to see if they can do something about it. Admittedly, I have stronger ties with Buzz Bee Toys than with Hasbro and BBT seems more willing and able to make changes. Petitions can work, but it'd need a LOT more people to sign it than are members of the community (optimally, being able to get at least 10000 signatures is an unwritten minimum, IMO).

:cool:
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by marauder » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:26 am

isoaker_com wrote:I'm all for more durable trigger systems, for sure! That is one area I've heard the community rant about for some time now and have been telling who I can in the manufacturing side about the problem, trying to see if they can do something about it. Admittedly, I have stronger ties with Buzz Bee Toys than with Hasbro and BBT seems more willing and able to make changes. Petitions can work, but it'd need a LOT more people to sign it than are members of the community (optimally, being able to get at least 10000 signatures is an unwritten minimum, IMO).

:cool:
Would that need to be 10,000 for a hand written petition or an online petition? That's pretty crazy. I think that it's great that Buzz Bee talks to you sometimes. I wonder if Steven Menow still works for Super Soaker, I looked up his patent credit list the other day.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by isoaker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:33 pm

10000 is for either an online or hand written petition. When you think about it, when you're talking about the manufacturing and sale of hundreds of thousands or even millions of items, 10000 isn't really that large of a number. Might be able to get away with a few thousand voices, but if the number isn't a large-enough-percentage of the number of people who actually buy the current water blasters, the likelihood of being listened to is dramatically reduced.

As for Steven Menow, I do not believe he works for Super Soaker anymore and I do not believe he is at Buzz Bee Toys, either.

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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by HBWW » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:14 am

I think if everyone reported their broken blasters to Hasbro instead (particuarly by customer service), that would work much better than a petition. The only problem is that it seems like only a few people from Hasbro know of the deliberate design flaws, possibly being only those people who caused it to happen. I'm not sure if they still just go and replace blasters for free (which they have for a while), but if more people tell of problems, that may be more effective than a petition. Heck, if every broken blaster was reported, Hasbro would get the design team to stop regurgitating blaster designs and actually get them designed properly for once.

So for now, report broken blasters before trying to repair them. (even if you started repairs, it doesn't matter) Get friends to do the same. If you have a lot of those newer blasters broken, tell them! Be specific - explain what's wrong, but I'd personally avoid technical details to the spring system. (not that the customer service representative would understand them anyways, they'd probably just tell whoever they have to that someone's gun broke)

With that said, I forgot to do the same for a Max-d 3000 whose pump broke. The trigger is still holding up just fine though, but I'll probably report it when it breaks. Then again, around that time I'm going to have to deal with the Max-D6k and other guns first. My replacement FF they sent 2 years ago is already weakening on the FF trigger despite little use throughout the 2 seasons.

Oh, and triggers break much faster when you play around with them, like I used to, heh.

Even if we don't get "enough" replacements from customer service to get their attention, having to send any amount of blasters for free will bog them down. With every blaster they have to give away, the chances of them paying attention to the problem may increase, but they will almost certainly change their customer service policies first. -_- Perhaps talking like a concerned parent without really providing any explanation of the blaster problem would help if they changed their customer service policy. (i.e. "I just bought my son an Arctic freeze something, the one where you load the ice cubes. He was playing with it yesterday and then it just stopped shooting. He says it was dribbling from some big hole and then just stopped working. What is going on?")
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by marauder » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:51 pm

Unfortunately all of my Max Ds broke a long time ago - minus my Aquapack Devastator. I wonder if they would still replace that. Your idea is good.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by HBWW » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:22 pm

Most likely they will not, but will replace with something "of equal value". Last time, I had a broken Nerf Rapid Fire 20, apparently they wouldn't send a new one because it was a "Toys R Us exclusive" so they sent a Buzzsaw... (which is worth half of the RF20 or less) No matter though, the Buzzsaw is still amusing and I repaired the RF20. Still, having 2 of them would be great for dual wielding. 40 darts instead of just 20.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by metaturtle » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:50 am

Well, I've submitted a complaint for a gun i just bought that died in less than 3 days. I will keep you updated on what they say.

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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by marauder » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:05 pm

metaturtle wrote:Well, I've submitted a complaint for a gun i just bought that died in less than 3 days. I will keep you updated on what they say.
Which gun?
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by Adrian » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:29 pm

Instead of those horribly heavy Max-D triggers that seem to "break" early in the pull, how about reversing that? A trigger with some slack that "breaks" at the end. That'd contribute to accuracy and I think would be much the same to engineer as the current system.

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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by metaturtle » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:05 am

When the badly engineered triggers called max d triggers wear out the snap point moves back further and further...

until the snap point is beyond the trigger pull length. this would contribute greatly to trigger breakage. when maxds are new the snap point is right after the trigger pull. when they get old the snap point is right near the end. when they die the spring is SO ****ING DEAD that the snap point is MUCH MUCH beyond the trigger pull length and that is what contributes to max d breakage. there is no other way to put it.


@marauder it was a liquidator. not very used but it still sucks nonetheless

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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by HBWW » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:35 pm

Some Max-D's just snap for the last time, meaning that there is no more snapping point at all. (in other words, the spring breaks) Otherwise, when it weakens out instead of breaking, it usually still works when theres no pressure. When there is, it doesn't snap at all unless you apply more, fast force on it (eventually that won't work either), then it may have trouble closing. But wait, the spring is still slightly stretched when the trigger is not being used. Smart move, so the springs can wear out over time even if the gun isn't used. (BBT does that too, but not as much for most of their guns)
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by Croc » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:08 pm

You guys do realize that there is a very fast and easy fix to the max-D trigger, right?

All you need to do is put an elastic where the spring used to be, and voila! Now you have a Max-D Trigger that will only die when the elastic out stretches itself (by experience, it's gonna last you a long time). If I get a Max-D gun, I either do the elastic mod to the trigger, or I just remove the clicky system, and fashion a new trigger rod from various sized paper clips and other devices. I think my MD6K has lasted about a year now, and it's been open close consistently ever since I replaced the spring with an elastic.

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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by HBWW » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:32 am

I've only tried the same old rubber bands that just break, my next step would be to buy springs. What do you mean by an elastic? A strong rubber band? (such as those used in dentistry.. but they dont seem to be designed to stretch that far)
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by marauder » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:45 pm

I am going to have to try the rubber band method. I hate that my Aquapack Devastators don't work anymore. Lowes doesn't have springs in the size needed for these types of repairs. I'm guessing we'd have to get them online.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by DX » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:34 pm

I've found the best bands are from grocery stores. The really wide, thick ones, purple at Stop & Shop. Wide bands are more stable and less likely to break.

I just remembered that one of my guns with an MD valve actually does still work perfectly. I completely forgot about it until someone mentioned in the Soakertalk room - I believe that my Defender has one. It certainly pulls like one. That gun, however, is an exception.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by HBWW » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:20 pm

All rubber band repairs I've tried have not lasted even as long as the springs themselves, except for the incomplete Max-D removal on my FF. (incomplete because i still need a solution for the flood trigger)

On a side note, has anyone tried CPVC nozzles for the FF? the kind where you take a short piece of CPVC and put a drilled endcap on it. I only tried the CPVC by itself with dissatisfactory results.
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Re: The Max D System Must Die

Post by Croc » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:07 pm

I basically put a newspaper elastic around the areas where the spring used to be, and it still clicks into place, still clicks shut, and I've had it for about a year now. Otherwise, just remove the system, and with something like the FF, put rubber bands to hold the nozzle shut unless you are pulling the trigger, and use a paper clip to connect valve and trigger. Makes it silent, and it doesn't have problems half as often. Just make sure to have the paper clip sized properly.

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