Project: BBT to SS comparisons

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XP270
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Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by XP270 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:24 am

Has anyone ever noticed how similar some of the designs Buzz Bee and Hasbro are? I decided last December to check this topic out and I dicovered many interesting things. The most notable though is the my comparison between the MM's Water Warriors Barracuda and one of our Max-D 2000s. They are so similar its scary. Check it out:
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/Wat ... 01400.html
Water Warriors Barracuda
and I know everyone knows what the 2000 looks like but what the heck
http://www.isoaker.com/Armoury/soaker_s ... D=maxd2000
MAX-D 2000

Isn't that wierd?
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mr. dude
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by mr. dude » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:13 pm

Many BBT employees once worked for SS, so that's not that big a shock. That's great though! I've always wanted a Max-D 2000.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by SSCBen » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:26 pm

The XP 240 is also similar. Interestingly, it was designed by Jeff Zimmerman (AKA Big Bee) during his time at Larami. Of course, now he's one of the people behind Buzz Bee Toys, so as mr. dude said, it's not that surprising to see some similarities.

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isoaker
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by isoaker » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:38 pm

The Water Warriors Barracuda is more closely related to the Super Soaker Max-D 4000 or XP 240 in terms of size and performance. As both mr.dude and Ben have noted, many Buzz Bee Toys employees were once directly involved in development and design of Super Soakers so it is of no surprise to see some similarity coming through between Buzz Bee Toys Inc's designs and previous Hasbro Inc designs. Current Hasbro Inc designs, though, are quite different than current Buzz Bee Toys' designs, reiterating the fact that the design teams have now diverged.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by HBWW » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:26 pm

Hopefully, the Barracuda's trigger doesn't break or leak after like 10 shots either. (However, both WW's and SS's have had problematic triggers recently.)
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by Croc » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:33 pm

Really? WW has had trigger problems? They don't, however, use the exact same trigger system, although they do use the same type of trigger (same system of use). The MD2K is probably a bit less reliable, since it uses the Max-D trigger, but anyhow, as discussed earlier, it is not surprising to see similar guns.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by mr. dude » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:55 pm

There have been reports of Orca triggers breaking, but the MD triggers are most likely less durable. I haven't had any problems with my triggers (both WW and Max-D), but it's easy to so why so many of them break.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by HBWW » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:23 pm

Well, my TS is doing ok right now (though I'm expecting it to get screwed up eventually like the others), but my Piranha and the Orca I used to have had some slightly trigger leaking, the Piranha being mild and the Orca being horrible. My friend also got an Orca which has some leaking as well. Recently, after some testing, my Max-D 5k also started acting up, though the whole trigger system is still intact. Right now, the only broken Max-D triggers I've seen are from my Flash Flood and someone's MD Secret Strike.

Now, if the Barracuda had some stats here, it'd be easier to directly compare them. The Barracuda's package says 17 oz while the iSoaker stats for the MD2k is around 11 oz. However, both have comparable handling (without a too-small trigger grip designed to restrict grip), and one probably has a better trigger. Barracuda seems to be better. (which I now regret getting the MD3k's instead of BBT pistols)
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by emperor_james » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:22 pm

I think the hydro power 07 WW line resembles old school super soaker quite a bit, including the packaging. however i wish WW would get some real power. the orca and blazer are pretty big guns, but they both seem underpowered, and there havent been any useful mods for them either.
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by isoaker » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:19 am

I wholeheartedly agree it'd be nice to see some higher-powered water blasters again, but that's been said for the past several years now. With the release of the Hydro Blitz last year, I had hoped to see something bigger this year, but no such luck.

As for the Orca, it is actually quite comparable in performance to the CPS 1000.

Super Soaker CPS1000 versus Water Warriors Orca

The Orca loses when it comes to maximum range likely due to poorer lamination for some reason, but level range and output on its max nozzle setting is virtually the same as the ol' CPS 1000. It also has a slightly larger PC and reservoir than the CPS1000. Now that the cap placement is fixed on the 2008 Orca, it should prove to be a pretty decent general-purpose modern day water blaster.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by HBWW » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:28 pm

For modern standards, it's excellent (given it's trigger isn't getting screwed up on the newer version), but I believe it's the small internal tubing that inhibits its performance so much. It only has higher output because the water just dumps out of the nozzle while the 1000 actually blasts it out. The Orca is also slightly heavier than it needs to be. (when unfilled) Overall, I wouldn't compare it to a 1000, it's still like a FF in comparision. (except this time the "problem" being with power instead of capacity, which it excels and surpasses the 1000 at) It's not just range that suffers on the Orca, its stream velocity and power. Overall, excellent modern blaster, well surpassing the XP's and air pressure blasters, but not quite up to CPS standards.
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by isoaker » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:55 pm

I'd still consider it comparable. I never stated the Orca was equal to or better than a CPS1000, simply comparable. :goofy:

The stream power of the Orca does feel softer than that of a CPS1000; I wonder whether its feel is also affected by its heavier base weight (over 550g /~20oz. heavier for some reason). Actually, thinking about it a little more, I now think I stated stream quality backwards. The Orca likely gets basically the same range when fired level as the CPS1000 since the Orca has better lamination. The Orca falls short at 45-degrees since it lacks the full force the CPS1000's chamber can push.

I don't consider the Orca is as close to the Flash Flood as it is to the CPS1000 due to overall stream performance and blaster size.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by emperor_james » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:55 pm

but once you overcome the size and price barriers, which both hasbro and BBT have in the last couple years, what keeps them from actually releasing guns as powerful or even more powerful than the old CPS? i guess guns like the FF are designed to let kids see a big blast of water without being too much for younger kids to handle, but then guns like the Orca and much less the Hydroblitz have no excuse. what about the scorpion, was it more powerful than the orca and blazer?
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by Croc » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:14 pm

The scorpion in it's own way was a fail. The motor was so loud that you could hear it from a few meters away.

They might have toned blasters down for the younger audience, but I don't see why BBT has decided against spherical PCs, or does SS have a patent for it?

If not, BBT should make a few guns with cylindrical pcs, and make improved versions of the Orca and TS.

Biting my own tongue, there is a patent for one of the SC guns, with an "expandable bladder" (Do patents expire, or if the creator dies, who keeps the patent?)
Patent

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by mr. dude » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:09 pm

First of all, the Scorpion and Orca/Blazer are pretty much the same in terms of power, there might be a slight difference but it's barely noticable. However, I don't know about comparing them to a 1000. They can achieve similar range, but the 1000 has a much faster travelling stream.
Second, you can hear the Scorpion from further than a few meters away, a few hundred meters sounds more reasonable.
As for BBT making spherical and cylindrical CPS, I don't think they need to. I'm pretty sure that Hydropower is quite easily capable of producing strong streams, they just don't want to take the risk. All they have to do is make the rubber thicker and give the guns a larger ID.

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isoaker
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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by isoaker » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:47 pm

In terms of comparing the Orca to the CPS1000, when it comes to stream speeds, the CPS1000 has a faster initial stream, but calling it much faster doesn't quite make sense since if the Orca's stream were really that much slower, it wouldn't be able to achieve the range it does. When a blaster is fired level to the ground, a stream's average speed will determine how much range that stream gets. The Orca and CPS1000 get roughly the same range fired level. I would agree that the CPS1000's stream seems to come out more quickly, but it must therefore slow down along the way which explains why it did not achieve a much greater range than what I measured for the Orca. I'd want to see these two blasters fired simultaneously side-by-side, but sadly, though I have the blasters, my CPS1000 is presently in deep storage and is not readily accessible for testing. If anyone here can do a side-by-side comparison, I'd love to see pics and hear more comments about stream performances.

As for what BBT or Hasbro can or cannot make, there are a lot more variables involved than simply re-releasing what was made before. Some things just cannot be presently manufactured and distributed as cost-effectively as they once could be, thus making some product just not possible from a manufacturing standpoint. That said, as always, I do believe that there is always hope for better things in the future. Some things take a little time to develop.

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Re: Project: BBT to SS comparisons

Post by Croc » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:16 pm

The main problem (I think) is that WW guns are not as laminar as possible. If the PC was rotated 90 degrees, it would be more laminar, thus creating more force. However, with their current PC designs, they would have gravity issues, and there would be residual water in the PC after emptying it.

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