SM Stat Rating Scales

[DX]

SM Reviews ratings will do stats with a slightly different scale than here, since some of the soakers I am going to review have higher ranges, outputs, etc. than normal.


Range:

Poor: 25ft-
Fair: 25-30ft
Average: 30-35ft
Good: 35-45ft
Great: 45-50ft
Excellent: 50-60ft
Superior: 60-70ft
Frightening: 70-100ft
Absurd: 100ft+

Output:

Very Low: 1x-
Low: 1-5x
Medium: 5x-10x
High: 10x-20x
Very High: 20x-30x
Extremely High: 30x-50x
Frighteningly High: 50x-70x
Absurdly High: 70x+

Shot Time:

Extremely Short: .50-
Very Short: .50-1
Short: 1-5
Medium: 5-30
Long: 30-1 min
Very Long: 1 min-5 min
Extremely Long: 5 min-10 min
Absurdly Long: 10 min+


Stream Velocity:
[Varies by gun, no set standards yet]

Very Slow
Slow
Medium
Fast
Very Fast

[isoaker]

Hmm...

I don't like the idea of having different standards again. I'd rather adapt the current list to include the higher numbers.

In light of the above listing, I'd like to recommend the following slight tweaks to it.

------------------------------------
Range:

Poor: <20ft
Fair: 20-30ft
Average: 30-35ft
Good: 35-45ft
Great: 45-50ft
Excellent: 50-60ft
Superior: 60-70ft
Vastly Superior: 70-100ft
Extreme: 100ft+

Output:

Very Low: <0.5x
Low: 0.5-2x
Medium: 2x-10x
High: 10x-20x
Very High: 20x-30x
Extremely High: 30x-50x
Massive: 50x-70x
Torrential: 70x+

Shot Time:

Extremely Short: <0.50
Very Short: 0.50-1s
Short: 1s-5s
Medium: 5s-10s
Long: 10s-1 min
Very Long: 1 min-5 min
Extremely Long: 5 min+


Stream Velocity:
[Varies by gun, no set standards yet]

Very Slow
Slow
Medium
Fast
Very Fast
------------------------------------

Thoughts: I dislike the use of the word 'absurd' when talking about stats. I also prefer to stay away from 'feeling' terms (i.e. frightening) since that is more subjective. Not everyone would be frightened by a farther-firing soaker.

Average stream velocity can be approximated by how far a level shot stream travels. Assuming gravity remains constant, two soakers that fire parallel to the ground that achieve stream distances of 40' will have equal average stream velocity. If one soaker is firing a laminar stream versus one pushing a riot-blast, the soaker making the riot-blast will produce a stream with higher initial velocity, but due to the stream shape, it will be slowed, causing the average velocity to be the same as a initially slower moving laminar stream. In terms of velocity, perhaps two are needed: exit velocity and average velocity.

[DX]

The corrections are fine. But like the velocity issue, I think output needs another look. I've said many times that 30mL/second = 1x is a flawed stat. A stream can have half the water of another, but if the velocity is double that of the other stream, the output is the same. In other words, output may not always describe output.

[isoaker]

The corrections are fine. But like the velocity issue, I think output needs another look. I've said many times that 30mL/second = 1x is a flawed stat. A stream can have half the water of another, but if the velocity is double that of the other stream, the output is the same. In other words, output may not always describe output.

30mL/sec = 1x.

The 1x rating is purely an output stat and no reflective of stream velocity. As your example explains, two soakers can have the same output, but very different stream velocities, depending on the output and size of the nozzle.

Output describes only output, but does not describe power, range, or stream velocity. It's akin to how horsepower in a vehicle describes available strength, though not necessarily maximum speed of a vehicle. Vehicle speed depends not just on horsepower, but also on things like vehicle weight, gear ratios, etc.

[DX]

My concern was that output does not always accurately describe output. If two streams can have the same output rating, yet different amounts of water, then it just isn't right. A 10x nozzle could produce very little actual water, or it could produce a bunch of water. But the stat calls them both the same, when the true water output of both is very different.

[isoaker]

Output is simply water dispensed per unit of time. If a 10x-sized nozzle isn't pushing much water, it will not get a 10x output rating (at least, not here). Some older Super Soaker nozzles were given names like 5x, 10x, and 20x. However, those are definitely not output numbers (though they turned out to be relatively close). I agree I don't like the 'x' terminology. I prefer simply using volume per second, but some like talking in 'x's.

Output always describes output. Some names given to stream sizes don't properly reflect the true output.

[Hannibal]

My concern was that output does not always accurately describe output. If two streams can have the same output rating, yet different amounts of water, then it just isn't right. A 10x nozzle could produce very little actual water, or it could produce a bunch of water. But the stat calls them both the same, when the true water output of both is very different.

Output is ounces per second, and has nothing to do with stream speed or stream size. I don't see how the output system is flawed at all. Could you explain?

[ZOCCOZ]

My CPS10k has a 5X nozzle opening but 12X output. I consider it officialy a 12X per second blaster. The increased streem speed(such as a k-mod) will just jack up the "X" amount most of the times. So the "x" rating system works fine for me. For impact power itself, I just use the old fashion MASS X SPEED= IMPACT POWER formular from my martial arts training when measuring power in punches. Admitingly, the "X" system does not realy measure impact power.



Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1147140106

[DX]

Size of the nozzle has nothing to do with anything. I'm talking about stream velocity causing a stream with not much water to become the same rating as one that is slower, but has a lot more water.

I don't know how to make the flaw any clearer. Take a modded gun with a 20x output. One looks at the stream and says " no way is that 20x, there's not much water!" But it comes out fast enough that it qualifies mathematically. You could have a gun with a 20x that would have been a 60x if the water came out faster! I'm trying to get at the concept that velocity can alter output without even affecting the size of the nozzle. In this way, output doesn't always describe output very well with certain examples.

[isoaker]

Size of the nozzle has nothing to do with anything. I'm talking about stream velocity causing a stream with not much water to become the same rating as one that is slower, but has a lot more water.

I don't know how to make the flaw any clearer. Take a modded gun with a 20x output. One looks at the stream and says " no way is that 20x, there's not much water!" But it comes out fast enough that it qualifies mathematically. You could have a gun with a 20x that would have been a 60x if the water came out faster! I'm trying to get at the concept that velocity can alter output without even affecting the size of the nozzle. In this way, output doesn't always describe output very well with certain examples.

Now you're talking about perception versus measuring.

If a soaker is labelled as having 20x output, it does not mean it has a fast stream or a slow one. All is says is that is unloads 600mL / ~20 oz of water per second.

If the stream only fires 15 mL of water, but does so in a quarter of a second, that'd be equivalent to 60 mL/sec or a 2x output. If a stream pushed 300 mL of water, but took 20 seconds to push it, the output would be a mere 15 mL/sec or 0.5x output. Note: none of these numbers are any indication of how far the stream will fire, either.

Output stats only measures output. It isn't always measured accurately, particularly for times less than a second, but that doesn't make the stat a bad one. It just makes the numbers measured something that needs to be verified by others. But now I'm digressing...

The idea that velocity affects output is exactly also what ZOCCOZ was referring to. His modified soaker fires more water out of the unmodded nozzle thanks to increased pressure. However, he notes the output increases to a new volume per second. Output can be increased or decreased by changing the velocity of the stream out of the nozzle. That's a given.

Methinks you're thinking/making the output stat as something more complex than it really is.

[ZOCCOZ]

I don't know how to make the flaw any clearer. Take a modded gun with a 20x output. One looks at the stream and says " no way is that 20x, there's not much water!" But it comes out fast enough that it qualifies mathematically. You could have a gun with a 20x that would have been a 60x if the water came out faster! I'm trying to get at the concept that velocity can alter output without even affecting the size of the nozzle. In this way, output doesn't always describe output very well with certain examples.

I am agreeing that velocity jacks up the output rating, as mentioned in my K-Mod example.(Nozzle sizes don't mean squat.) But I don't necessarly think it would say that the "X" system is a flawed system. If the measuring cup would measure actualy 60X instead of 20X, its 60X output.(If there is indeed enough water to mesre 60X.) At least thats my understanding of "X", which is what the measuring cup comes up with. i don't know what others interpred with the "X" system.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, iSoaker and ZOCCOZ have it right there. Output is output, and output only. There may be misconceptions based on nozzle size, but we're not talking about nozzle size or stream speed, only output. A stream could be shot that has the output of 10x and the stream size of an XP70(1x) .

[DX]

If the stream only fires 15 mL of water, but does so in a quarter of a second, that'd be equivalent to 60 mL/sec or a 2x output. If a stream pushed 300 mL of water, but took 20 seconds to push it, the output would be a mere 15 mL/sec or 0.5x output. Note: none of these numbers are any indication of how far the stream will fire, either.

^ That explains all of my misconceptions. What I didn't get was how streams under one second are treated [whether it was cut off right there, or extended to a full second]. That makes a lot more sense.

I know that nozzle size has absolutely nothing to do with anything, this stream velocity-output thingy was just yet another example of Duxburian thinking in a different tangent than others and doing a bad job of explaining why. :p I've noticed that I think differently and reason differently than most, which can be good and bad. Good because I think of new solutions for certain things, such as fighting wars. Bad if I make some strange reasoning on a concept like this one.

[isoaker]

hehe, glad we're speaking the same thing now.

For all intents and purposes, streams under a second are measured as well as people can measure things, but for those using stopwatches, the time on the stopwatch is probably just a touch longer on average than the actual shot time. The problem with fraction-of-a-second shots is that inaccuracy in measurements yields huge differences/errors in calculated output values. That's why I presently don't like reporting output stats for blasters that shoot below a second. I just don't feel I'm accurate enough.

If anyone has a light-sensor-activated timer, that'd be the more accurate in terms of measuring shot time. From there, just need to be sure to capture the majority of the water pushed out in that time to get the approximate output value.