We expect too much from soakers now!

[m15399]

That may happen sooner than you think.

I'll place my bet on June 14, 2008.

But really, I think that is true. As soon as people turn up that air compressor, we could be well into the 100's... maybe...



Edited By m15399 on 1129590450

[DX]

Soaking requires about the same skills required to play dodgeball. You know, anticipating the path of the stream/ball.

And guess who loves dodgeball!? I've lasted for 2 and 1/2 hours in one game. It's funny how reflexes connect certain types of games. My favorite physical activities happen to be water wars, dodgeball, tetherball, and track, and that's not a coincidence! :laugh:

As for range, I'm not really all that fond of compressors and regulators because A: the cost of buying either is the same as making 4 APHs, and B: they aren't the most practical of things to have in a war. Old fashioned pumping can deliver your max range in under 10 seconds depending on the gun.

I'm mainly interested in extending range via modding and air pressure homemades, since that keeps it battle-practical. Other beastly guns may break 100ft, but if they aren't good for battle, then it's just not the same. That would be something nice to show off, though.

[m15399]

I would hate to have to carry around an air compressor. Why not use a hand pump? It costs less, and you don't have to shove it in a backpack to carry around.

I agree that ranges in the 100's would not exactly be safe for the most water battles (I'd say that even 70-80 is pushing it), but for me, making a homemade that could shoot in the 100's would be just plain cool :;):

[hunter]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't think the current line of guns sucks (except for those crappy max-d triggers) But I mod because I CAN, I will always be pushing for the best soaking has to offer, regardless of public opinion or what Hasbro sets as the standard; for I believe that if we manage to create vastly superior weapons, they will eventually become ordinary, and the standards will be raised one more notch. That is what humanity has been doing for generations, 70 years ago, people would have never imagined that we could have people on the moon, and I hope that in 10 years, we will look back and see how the guns we use now were primitive and fragile.

[m15399]

I don't think anything above 50 ft. will ever become the standard. Maybe for people on these forums, but the general public is never going to see guns that good (although there is always hope). The people on the forums make up less than 0.001% of the people that have super soakers. Hasbro will not make anything with ranges up there because the general audience has no desire for guns like that. The parents aren't going to buy a CPS 2000 for their little 7 year old. Hasbro needs to keep the age range wide, and low. If they tried changing the age range to teens, their sales would drop through the floor. "Why would you get a super soaker, when you could get an airsoft gun?" is the general approach to super soaking from people over the age of 10.

[hunter]

For me its: "my parents wont let me get an airsoft "

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

The parents aren't going to buy a CPS 2000 for their little 7 year old.

Nobody is understanding me! People hardly know about BBT so Hasbro has a monopoly to a certian extent, that's why they can charge $30 for a $15 gun. People will buy whatever Hasbro makes, so if Hasbro made only large powerful guns people would have to buy large powerful guns.



Edited By LIGHT ANNIHILATOR on 1129679795

[m15399]

For me its: "my parents wont let me get an airsoft "

That's my case exactly. But, most people are allowed to have, or do have, airsoft or paintball guns

[SSCBen]

That may happen sooner than you think. Ben's next homemade probably reach the 90's, and a 80 ballon k-mod 11k with a nozzle mod could reach the 80's.

A distance of 90 feet would be neat, but it's not going to happen any time soon. You can't just add 30 to 40 feet of distance like that. The power requirement increases exponentially as distance increases. Unless we come across some neat new nozzle (Bloch's nozzle?), use dangerous pressures, or use glycerin, over 80 feet simply isn't going to happen.

I do not think that many people realize this! As distance increases, the power required increases exponentially. You can't just guess that a water gun or modification will add X number of feet. It might just add one or two, do nothing, or decrease distance. I wish people would stop throwing these numbers around, do what they claim will get these ranges and then record accurately.

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

^ All of that is summarized in your "streams" article, but that article was so long I was to lazy to read it :laugh:.

[m15399]

I still think if we used pipe rated for 200PSI that someone could use an air compressor and get into the 90's at least.

[DX]

It would be best to find a way that doesn't require excessive pressure to do it. There must be some way to get higher range without the use of a compressor or that kind of stuff. I've only been up to 65, and don't know how much farther I can reach from mods. None of my homemades can reach 60, so I've been working with modded range more often.

You're right that all this is speculation, and speculation has no real value, but I will only cease to believe in 80, 90ft after using all options available to me. That will also mean going down right now to see if my 11K check valve is fixed, if so I can try to prove or disprove Integrated range speculation. I don't expect the world, but at least a bit more than the 65 my 21K can get.

[SSCBen]

I still think if we used pipe rated for 200PSI that someone could use an air compressor and get into the 90's at least.

My latest homemade's pipe is rated for 220 PSI. Both of my compressor don't go that high. Most people won't be able to afford compressors that can go that high. Hand pumps would be a poor way to achieve pressures like that because they would become tiring.

We need to find more efficient designs like Duxburian said. That was the main point of my Streams article, and I will promote it further in the replacement for the Streams article "Water nozzle and stream physics". This new article will feature much more information in pictures, but to understand it you will have to read all of it (sorry LA).

I'm thinking that the one power-multiplying design I posted about at SoakerMedia would be a good way to operate at lower pressures, though I'm not sure how well it would work. Hydraulic leverage is what makes water gun pumps easy to pump, so I don't know why you couldn't apply it to pressure chambers too.

I don't think any of you people realize how dangerous a 90 - 100 foot shooting water gun would be. I've discussed my concern with some people on AIM. I don't think most people are mature enough to handle this sort of power. People will use non-pressure rated PVC pipe, shoot each other in the face, use too much pressure and simply be stupid. To me, if you can make these water guns without a guide or help, you are mature enough to handle them.

These massive distance water guns would also be worse than a small pistol for water wars too. By their nature they will be bulky, hard to pressurize, get too short shot time, get only one shot, etc. These areas can be improved upon, but it won't be as good as battle-practical modded and homemade water guns.

I think everyone should focus more on LRT CPS homemade water guns because they're very easy to make, maintain, they perform well, and they are cheap! My whole recent homemade water gun verifies very much of what I thought would be true - people are more concerned with sheer power than they are concerned with usefulness! That's not a bad thing necessarily, but it can be.

[hunter]

I agree on that, we need more efficient designs, maybe it's possible to write a computer program that would be able to calculate the most efficient set up...

[m15399]

One thing I'd like to see is a practical homemade trigger. They have been discussed, but they all seem to require too much energy to pull. If we put a spring on a ball valve, it would require at least twice as much energy to pull the trigger than to turn the valve.

[SSCBen]

I agree on that, we need more efficient designs, maybe it's possible to write a computer program that would be able to calculate the most efficient set up...

Why would I do that when I already know? Seems like a wasted effort to me. Besides, that would be an enormous task. If you want to do that, go ahead. The whole streams article explains the whole efficient design thing very well.

The only thing that really changes per setup is the nozzle orifice size, and I can calculate the ideal orifice size fairly accurately.



Edited By Doom on 1129773498

[isoaker]

If 90-100' is, as noted by Doom, probably too dangerous for the typical water warfare field without mature usage and need for some safety equipment, what range would satisfy the majority? Those like Dux seem to want to have soakers pushing the 60-70' mark while others seem more or less content with the 30-40' mark. From my understanding of the safety restrictions placed on manufacturers, the Monster XL stats more or less define the limits placed on them in terms of output power. There may be ways to get a little more range without increasing output power, but for the commercial makers, it is unlikely that soakers pushing streams beyond 50' will be allowed unless some things are changed in terms of safety regulations.

Of course, the homebuilders can push the limited of their craft, but also as Doom has noted, effectiveness on the field is probably more important than power. From my own battle experiences, while blasters like the CPS2000 can lay out buckets of water, they also burn up their reserves rather quickly and result in shorter times between filling requirements than say an XP150.

Things I'd also like to see better developed in game defintions, additional support equipment, a better tagging system, more efficient filling methods with and without hose support, etc. In terms of actual soaker-tech, things I'd still like to see are more modular-style soakers with interchangeable nozzles, pump volumes, PCs, reservoir/backpacks as needed by the user. Perhaps a soaker with a variable nozzle orifice as how a camera aperature can open to various diameters.

I'll agree than 30' feels a little short, but 40-50' ranged soakers are adequate for the majority of the water wars I've been in. If it were possible to push things up to 75', that'd be great, but at the same time, the range limitation forces one to be better prepared when engaging opponents. Shorter ranges forces one to move a little quicker when needing to dodge an incoming stream. Besides, I like to be close to those I soak to get the best view of their faces as they get drenched! Long range attacks leave me less satisfied since I don't get to see/hear my opponents yell as clearly. :;):

[LIGHT ANNIHILATOR]

Just because a gun has long range doesn't mean it's dangerous.

[DX]

One thing I'd like to see is a practical homemade trigger. They have been discussed, but they all seem to require too much energy to pull. If we put a spring on a ball valve, it would require at least twice as much energy to pull the trigger than to turn the valve.

That problem has been solved! Adding 3 of a certain type of rubber band at the handle does indeed have enough force to pull the valve back when you let it go. The rest should be easy: cutting out pvc for the trigger area, getting a rod to hook between the trigger and ball valve, and cutting a slit for the trigger to slide into. The spring idea probably won't work, but the rubber band idea has been proven to work! Of course you need those thick kinds of rubber bands, not the ordinary ones.

A picture and some info is in a topic in the SM forums somewhere. This idea needs a person to finish carrying it out. Any Takers?

effectiveness on the field is probably more important than power.

While I would love to see higher ranges, that holds true only if the guns remain battle-practical. The most effective long range guns right now in terms of practicality take few pumps to load and don't release too much water in one shot. I also would like higher ranges to include higher stream speed when possible. A 50ft CPS 2000 shot may dish out loads of water, but it only travels at normal speed. A 50ft 21K shot dishes out much less water, but it gets there twice as fast.

With long range fighting, you don't want each shot to use much water and you want the elevated speed. Same case for short range, unless you are playing soakfest.



Edited By Duxburian on 1129842094

[m15399]

Yes, I've read that topic, but I think I'll try a simple ball valve first. We'll see what's next :;):