Retail Large Cannon design proposal/suggestion thr

[Hannibal]

Well, I can't speak for air pressure. Dux is an expert on that, I'm not much of an expert on anything. But take a Hydro Power PC. If you simply thicken the rubber of the PC a bit, and use those conical nozzles, wouldn't a Hydro Power PC hit 50 feet? I'd like to see a Piranha hit 50 feet, and a Blazer even more.

EDIT: My CPS 1700 hits 38 feet angled. But look at the CPS 2000. It shoots 50 feet, and has a huge nozzle. If the CPS2000 had a 8x nozzle, imagine how much range it would get.



Edited By Hannibal on 1144537318

[DX]

But would your model be the "model average".If you could give me 3 independant sorces who used a tape measurer and got beyond 40 every time with 10X, then I supose the average would be higher then.

And how did you come up with this "model average?" Did you poll all the 1500 users in the world to get the stats of all of the countless thousands of 1500s out there? There can never be such a thing, and no one can claim such a thing as a true "model average" for any common gun since no one can get all those stats. There can only be local averages and general compilations based on a handful of guns.



Edited By Duxburian on 1144537284

[Hannibal]

Anyway here, we're straying from the general topic. For Big Bee here, how might a Hydro Power PC be improved to get extra range? Dux has already shown how an air pressure PC might be improved.

[isoaker]

@ Duxburian: I'd avoid stating 'no pressure' when it comes to pushing out streams and achieving range. Without any pressure, there's no way to move the water from stationary position. Heck, even with pressure, you can't push a stream. You need a pressure difference, but now I'm digressing.

As for the inverted T design, wouldn't an L have worked just as well? As well, for the first part of the shot, I can see how the water is pushed more linearly out the nozzle, but as water is emptied from the firing chamber, unless the nozzle is nearer to the bottom of the straight part of the inverted T, I fail to see how you can make use of all the water before you start doing mist shots.

[ZOCCOZ]

And how did you come up with this "model average?" Did you poll all the 1500 users in the world to get the stats of all of the countless thousands of 1500s out there? There can never be such a thing, and no one can claim such a thing as a true "model average" for any common gun since no one can get all those stats. There can only be local averages and general compilations based on a handful of guns.

There rarely is such a thing a "truth". Only "likely" and "unlikely". Keep in mind I am refering to the 10X stream of the CPS1500. isoaker.com has it as 39-40 feet, while Aquanexus only mentions the 5x going past 40. The CPS1500 I had got 38 feet(already 3 sorces). Then on WWN some mentioned their CPS1500 reaching around 35-40 feet. While you are correct that there is no official average, I would say that discounting unofficial averages would be uncalled for if more than 2 or 3 sorces start having similar stats. I think its not far fetched that 3-10 models should be enough to represent a whole line in a fair light in a general sense or at least set a probable expactation.

I agree that we are drifting of topic. But if someone would like to open a thread where everyone can post their distances, that would be cool.

As for saving retail space and production costs, how would plastic-bubble packaging compare to the standard cardboard packaging?



Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1144539105

[Hannibal]

As for saving retail space and production costs, how would plastic-bubble packaging compare to the standard cardboard packaging?

That would definitely save costs, but think about it. You can't stack soakers 5 high when they have been wrapped in bubble wrap. It would help the companies, but hurt the stores.

[ZOCCOZ]

Not necessarly. Paintball and Airsoft used plastic bubble-packaging similar to electronics packaging of a diskman. They can be stocked very well. The only downside would be the tidius opening of those packages, but thats not much of a problem I would say.

As an added advantage, plastic packaging always has some sort of a "high quality product" look.



Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1144541483

[Crashdummy]

Suggestion: My Blazer has a little problem that I bet others are having. The streams tend to break up closer to the nozzle than my other guns (by quite a bit actually). I took mine apart, and realized it doesn't have any meshing in from of the nozzle. Over at SSC, there was a lot of talk over how meshing helped keep the stream from breaking up in other soakers, and I was wondering if you could try that. Maybe the range will go up a few feet too. ???

[m15399]

My Blazer doesn't have that problem at all. What year is yours? The 2006 and I believe the 2005 ones have conical nozzles and the only stream that breaks up significantly is the largest one.

[DX]

As for the inverted T design, wouldn't an L have worked just as well? As well, for the first part of the shot, I can see how the water is pushed more linearly out the nozzle, but as water is emptied from the firing chamber, unless the nozzle is nearer to the bottom of the straight part of the inverted T, I fail to see how you can make use of all the water before you start doing mist shots.

I rarely let air pressure guns run to the drop-off point in testing, and never even close in battles. So I actually don't know when it goes to mist.

Over at SSC, there was a lot of talk over how meshing helped keep the stream from breaking up in other soakers, and I was wondering if you could try that. Maybe the range will go up a few feet too.

It actually has not been proved that mesh in the nozzle does anything helpful. It does slow down the stream velocity, which I guess could help the cohesiveness, but I'm not totally sure.

Back on topic, it would be awesome to see some of the range ideas implemented. I would certainly be wow-ed enough to snap the 4 year boycott and buy such a stock soaker. I don't think I've been this excited about new stock guns since...I haven't before. So my hopes are on BBT for 2007...hopefully it happens...



Edited By Duxburian on 1144549695

[Crashdummy]

I have the new Blazer. This problem is very annoying, because although it is getting good range, I know it can be better. The streams shoot in a wierd almost U like shape, breaking up almost right after they leave the soaker.

I think I should ask for a replacement, but I've done a few things to the soaker already (removed electronics, taken off the stickers, cracked some little clips that hold the PC down). I hope they will accept it with the stickers taken off and nonworking electronics. :p

[isoaker]

I have the new Blazer. This problem is very annoying, because although it is getting good range, I know it can be better. The streams shoot in a wierd almost U like shape, breaking up almost right after they leave the soaker.

Sounds more like you go something stuck in the nozzle or tubing feeding the nozzle. None of the streams on my Blazer show anything bizarre, though definitely not as apparently smooth as streams from the Aqua-Masters line.

[Crashdummy]

I can see down the piping, and the ball valve it has for a trigger valve doesn't open 100% of the way. I'm beginning to think that is what is causing the funky streams.

[isoaker]

If the ball-valve isn't opening fully, that's a good source of turbulence that you'll see the results of in the stream flow. However, this is getting off topic for this thread.

In terms of large cannons, I've wondered how much more expensive are larger ball valves versus smaller ones. Say, for example, wanting a ball valve with an ID of 1/2" or 3/4" to allow larger streams to flow.

[Hannibal]

I see Big Bee is on again, and I thought he might want to see this thread, so I'm gonna bump it. Hope that's alright. And good to see you Big Bee!

[isoaker]

No need to bump this thread. Big Bee has definitely seen it already. He told me so.

[Dacca]

man, back on topic:

IMO, the the good things to happen to soakers in this new age are
1. the Max-I tech: adding a backpack to anything is awsome
2. the flash flood: sure people talk about how it doesnt compair to the other soakers, but the PC draining riot blast is a great feature. sure riot blasts are nothing new, but the FF is the first to really get it right. without shotgun mods or anything, a PC draining riot blast is a great panic button, melee attack, and i found it helpful on draining my tanks after use.
3. the blazer: this is a great step back to the old days. a good, well formed rifle with decent range to other soakers. its a good first step

with that said i would love to see this trend continue. having another soaker with a riot blast and a better primary output that isnt just another revamped FF (but that would be cool). but looking back to the history of soakers, a riotblast isnt needed with something like a 10x (cps2000). so with newer rifles like the blazer could maybe make this happen, higher range and output withing reason. as stated it seems as if a lot, if not all, users would love to see the 50' mark once again. Another thing to consier is sheer style. SS series and BuzzBee series look and feel compleatly diffrent. if two soakers by both companies preform the same, you would consider style before you bought one. personally i prefer the stlye and feel of SS brand, but thats just me. when considering to makeing a water gun, i believe that the first thing to worry about is internals. home mades usually dont look that good, rather nothing more then raw internals. i believe that once the inernals are figured out then one should worry about how to fit it into a reasonable case.

[ZOCCOZ]

but looking back to the history of soakers, a riotblast isnt needed with something like a 10x (cps2000).

Don't you mean CPS 2500?

I also should note to the general comunity(to who it aplys) that a large nozzle like a 10X or 20X is not a riot nozzle. Riot nozzles are meant as a gimmick shot for whidespread(useful or not) streams, while 10X and 20X nozzles where meant to shoot out an actual concentrated laminar stream.

man, back on topic:
IMO, the the good things to happen to soakers in this new age are
1. the Max-I tech: adding a backpack to anything is awsome
2. the flash flood: sure people talk about how it doesnt compair to the other soakers, but the PC draining riot blast is a great feature. sure riot blasts are nothing new, but the FF is the first to really get it right. without shotgun mods or anything, a PC draining riot blast is a great panic button, melee attack, and i found it helpful on draining my tanks after use.
3. the blazer: this is a great step back to the old days. a good, well formed rifle with decent range to other soakers. its a good first step

Well meant post, but still not quite on topic. :;):
This thread is looking for detailed suggestions how to create a large soaker like a CPS 1500 or a CPS 2500 within the contemporary restrictions of retail.
So I will refresh:

If you would like to see a new Large Cannon in the future(10xer or larger), feel free to post in this design proposal/sugestion thread. If anything else, its for fun.

Keep in mind: Retail has restrictions for available shelf space, so the rules of this little game would be max length is 23.5 inches(current largest retail soakers). At least for now untill we know the actual available max shelf space.



Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1145906976

[Dacca]

eh, so i forgot about that after reading all the way through the topic. but a riot blast is diffrent that a 10x+, but you really dont need one with a nozzle bigger then 10x. thats what i ment by that. the riot blast feature of the FF is pretty cool and would be sweet to see it used on new soakers, but the tech becomes null if you put it with another large output nozzle (imagine a cps2000 with a riotblast, its just overkill).

[DX]

Might I remind people how relative the output stat really is? You can in theory and actuality have a small nozzle that is rated a 10x. The stream velocity just has to be faster. That's what makes outputs the way they are. The nozzles tend to be larger, but they don't have to be. And that's why I think output by 30mL/second = 1x is a flawed system. You can have a large stream, slow velocity = 10x. Or you can have a small stream, high velocity = 10x. As long as it meets the requirement of 300mL/second, it's a 10x, no matter what the speed, size, etc. is.

People like to forget this. Output is extremely relative and cannot be thought of in such absolute terms as big nozzle or big stream automatically = big output. Cause that's not always true. :p