Boing! APH with a twist!

Guides and discussions about building water blasters and other water warfare devices such as water balloon launchers.
soakinader
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Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by soakinader » Fri May 24, 2013 2:22 am

I have some random thoughts stretching out my mind. Lately I have become obsessed with springs. Don't know why. But I have had a few ideas bouncing around and I figured that I should get them out of my head before it's too late.

What if, you take a Steady Stream 1/2, drill out the nozzle and attach a ball valve+ trigger. Now you can pump it up pretty hard and maybe get some power out of it? I have a spring from one, it's gnarly. I can't compress it more than 25-30% (it's 3" long). I will try it if I find one...

I would like to make a SPH (Spring Powered Homemade)/ SAPH (Spring-Air Powered Homemade) . I have several springs, but the one I want to try is 12" long which will fit in a 2" piece of PVC, which gives me roughly <300mL if I fill the chamber up half-way. Now, I could just go out there, start buying random parts & building the thing. But I have some questions.

First being, what is the operating pressure of some CPS or air-pressure blasters, heck even some homemades? Just to give me an idea.
Second, I have some options for the chamber. I could run on spring power alone (probably not enough) OR I could take a page from Buzz Bee and their Argon/Krypton/Neon pre-chargers line. Basically, the front of the chamber would fill with water only, but the back would be the spring sealed off with air pressure. I could even have an air-only pump for extra power and a release valve just like the Argon.
*And now I have my facepalm moment. I have seen half a dozen Argon, Neon and a Krypton (most of them broken) over the years. But I left them all alone. Of course, NOW I need them for parts, basically. I could probably frankenstein one with a new, larger springy PC as long as the internals can take the pressure.*
But in the meantime, I guess this will be purely a homemade. Let's say I have my sealed 12" PC. I have the check valves and pump set up. So I pump the chamber up half-way with water. Now the pressure in the back of the chamber has doubled [?] (not to mention the spring!). Think this will be enough as it is? I am not entirely sure because this will be using a low-diameter pump and the check valve, but I might not even be physically able to pump it half way. Or I could pump it 3/4 of the way. I just don't know.
Check my minus page for some sketches. I'll push them here later.

Another random thought. Would the rubber air bladder from a nerf magstrike or RF20 be good for a water PC? They are both cylindrical and Flash Flood-ish sized. Maybe I'll just have to smash one open and see...
Last edited by soakinader on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DX
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Re: Boing!

Post by DX » Fri May 24, 2013 9:17 am

The problem with a spring-powered homemade is the fast air release. They produce a very short-lived burst that can be quite disorganized since the faster air dump introduces turbulence. It would also take a very, very strong spring to achieve more than 35, 40ft. The Steady Stream 1/2 has a good stream, but then again it's not a pure spring-powered model - the spring is mainly to extend the shot beyond the stroke length of the pump, it doesn't provide the raw power. If you look at it when shooting, it barely compresses at all. The other issue with spring power is that you're confined to tap shots. The unique properties of a stream of water allow for things in this hobby that no other shooting game has, like correcting your aim mid-shot. Sometimes, you need to be able to hold down the trigger, or unload the entire PC at once.

CPS operates at about 30-40 PSI of water pressure from what I've read. AP guns vary depending on what it is. Homemades, in theory, could operate up to the safety margin of its pipe rating although the pump will probably stop well before then. You could try a magstrike/RF 20 bladder, although they look a bit on the small side for the amount of work needed. You'd have to put it in something, probably homemade, in which case LRT is just time better spent.

Nothing stops you from trying it, but a lot of people have considered spring homemades and ditched the idea in the past.
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soakinader
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Re: Boing!

Post by soakinader » Fri May 24, 2013 1:54 pm

Alright, so here are some pictures of the idea. Basically, it's an APH with a horizontal PC and a divider to physically seperate air and water. The spring is just to ... help. Essentially, it acts like a CPH in that you are only pumping water into the firing chamber (unlesss you are trying to empty the gun).
Image
I think the picture is pretty self-explanatory. Not quite to scale, but you get the idea.
Here is a crappy pictures of the second pump:
Image
My only concern is whether I will need this second pump (like the Aqua Masters) to pressurize the back of the PC, or if the water will provide enough compression/pressure to fire without it. I mean, if you are using a gun like an XP 150 or SS 300, by pumping water into the unpressurized PC, you are compressing the air inside and thereby pressurizing it. I think this will work. The Pulse Master works pretty well, so I'm going to try and fly with this idea.
Here's one last picture. The top is trying to get the trigger area correct. The bottom nice picture is essentially to scale (except for the trigger). The PC is 12" X 2", the pump will be roughly the same length, and the fittings are subject to availability.
Image
Time to go to Lowes.
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Andrew
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Re: Boing!

Post by Andrew » Fri May 24, 2013 2:27 pm

With the spring as well, the second pump probably isn't necessary, but a little extra pre-charge can't hurt. :goofy:

You could consider just adding a Schrader valve to the back of the PC, and pre-charge it before a battle so you don't need to carry the extra pump around (you'd want a fairly large volume foot pump to easily pre-charge to a decent pressure and you probably don't want to carry that around with you). This also allows you to de-pressurise the PC before storage (you can just push the pin in on the Schrader valve to let the air out).

soakinader
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Re: Boing!

Post by soakinader » Fri May 24, 2013 9:58 pm

That sounds like a great idea. Thanks! I just need to find one that I can adapt to fit 2"PVC. It's not a priority, and it may not even be necessary. But hey, if I can find one, that would be perfect.
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Nemesis
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Re: Boing!

Post by Nemesis » Sat May 25, 2013 7:41 pm

I have thought about that exact same idea with the steady stream! I think that this could work, but getting the air/water divider to seal might be a challenge.
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Andrew
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Re: Boing!

Post by Andrew » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:33 am

You could use a threaded Schrader valve into a threaded socket or drilled endcap, or use a pushfit Shrader valve into a drilled endcap. I've used the pushfit ones in homemade NERF guns. They are designed for car/motorbike tyre use, but seem to be able to stand up to pretty ridiculous pressures and don't have any threads to rip out. They just push in from the inside of the PC (fit it to the endcap before solvent welding the PC).

wetmonkey442
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Re: Boing!

Post by wetmonkey442 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:26 pm

I'm sorry, but this will not work out the way that you want. A standard spring will decompress linearly. This means that the stream exiting the nozzle will decrease in range linearly. And since the spring you are using is quite short (I believe you said ~3"), the shot time will not be very useful. To solve this, you could use a bigger spring and a larger pressure chamber. But this increases costs and performance will still fall way short of an APH (for the reasons that DX has already stated).

Many of the members on this board, and on others, have experimented extensively with alternative methods of pressurizing water. It has been found that using a rubber bladder (similar to a CPS system), air pressure, or air pressure in combination with some type of piston generally produces the best results. If this is your first homemade attempt, I would strongly suggest that you look up plans to build an APH. They are fun and easy to build and will easily outperform any stock soaker that you have ever used!
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soakinader
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Re: Boing!

Post by soakinader » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:42 pm

If you read this more carefully you would not have posted.
-1
No, seriously, I am talking about making a hybrid system. NOT a purely spring powered homemade. Basically a horizontal APH that uses a spring.
The 3" spring is from the steady stream. That discussion was about modifying the steady stream, not using that tiny spring for a homemade.
I know you were trying to help, but next time read the whole post instead of jumping to a conclusion.
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wetmonkey442
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Re: Boing!

Post by wetmonkey442 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:48 am

Ignoring your blatant disregard for reasonable advice, I'd say go for it! Build this homemade exactly the way that you have described it. Pump it up with water. Open the ball valve. You will realize very quickly what I am talking about.

Make sure you post pictures and videos so that we can see your marvelous creation.
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HBWW
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Re: Boing!

Post by HBWW » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:41 am

Spring, air, it will still have massive dropoff because such dropoff is present in both forms of pressurization. Combining both will not magically remove this limitation and will likely just complicate things; I encountered this when I suggested encasing a CPH bladder in a sealed off PC for an additional boost of air, but the consensus was that it caused unnecessary bladder stress and design complication, so I decided it wasn't the right approach.

Personally, I've never taken enough interest to bother with spring power at all. I consider it in the same group as HydroPower; BBT has had some success with them, but they have considerable limitations to contend with particularly in homemade designs. (Although spring looks way easier than HP for homemades.) Anyway, as wetmonkey said, the big two: rubber bladders and air pressure, are the best.

If you do end up going with a standard APH, it's worth reminding that the check valves need to stay as close as possible to the pump for pre-pumping air. From your illustrations, it seems that you are aware of that. I'm working on an APH guide of my own design, but I haven't had time to actually start writing it out due to being busy with job hunting.
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soakinader
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Re: Boing!

Post by soakinader » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:03 pm

Alrighty. This is basically going to turn into a dual-chamber APH that lies horizontally. Worst comes to worst I will take it apart and make a standard APH.
The signifigance of my plans is the chamber separating the air and water; getting that to seal is going to be tricky (however, I already have a pretty good idea of how I am going to do that). If I can do that then I can make the pump (and vice-versa).
Sure I would like to make a CPH as well, but for anyone out there who has used a powerful APH, that is essentially what I am going to make; I'm just going to make it my way. Eventually. If this thing works as I intend it to it will have pretty drastic drop-off (that is almost inevitable) however, it should also be difficult to pump and shoot like an ultra-beast that cannot mist shot. It's definitely something to tap shoot but how is that different from any air-pressure gun?
So one day... I will try.
Now for some input: I know that CPVC/PVC doesn't have very consistent ID; for making the pump (and the PC) is there some different kind of pipe I should use or am I just going to have to find a good quality, high tolerance piece?
My friends call me Nader. My foes just run.
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HBWW
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by HBWW » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:05 pm

I've thought of trying PVC pipe nipples before for pumps; they seem built to much lower tolerances and the inside surface is higher quality. However, I never actually did this since I haven't had too much trouble with varying PVC ID's. My main concern is whether snap tees work on PVC nipples; I'm fairly sure that they should, but I haven't actually tried it. The pipe nipples I've seen at 1/2" NPT threads seem to be very close to 5/8" in ID, as a 5/8" OD rubber grommet seems to work perfectly. (However, 5/8" OD O-rings are likely too large.)

One possibility could be getting a decent length of pipe nipple, then cutting off the end and using a slip endcap. The other end can thread into a tee and you have a removable pump. Some may prefer threaded endcaps, in which case you'll have to use the whole length of pipe. (Pipe nipple lengths vary, but you won't find any in between length steps, say, 12" or 24".)

I would avoid dropoff wherever possible in any homemade design since it makes a small part of the blast useful and the rest of it too weak to use. For air pressure, there are a few ways to do this that all have the same effect: constrain the water/air ratio.
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soakinader
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by soakinader » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:55 pm

Wait, how long of a pipe nipple can you get? The pictures I'm seeing on google are of short, externally threaded pipe joiners that would make a perfect pump (except the stroke length would be less than 3 inches).
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atvan
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by atvan » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:15 pm

I'm not entirely understanding what you are planning to do, or why it will be better than a standard APH.

Also, somewhat unrelated, but does somebody know what units the rate constants are for McMaster-Carr's springs?
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HBWW
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by HBWW » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:43 pm

I've seen 24" or maybe more, can't remember. You'll have to keep looking to find the lengthy ones. ACE Hardware should have them.
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atvan
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by atvan » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:04 pm

?

Were you replying to me? I was asking about the number on McMaster that is essentially how strong the spring is, and what unit it is on that site.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

soakinader
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by soakinader » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:24 pm

Hmm, maybe I should order some springs off MCM while I'm at it.
This is essentially turning into a giant AquaMaster homemade. Like a super-charged WW Krypton! At this point the spring is moot. I appreciate all the interest, confusion, and sarcasm. I don't know if this will be better than a standard APH; all I know is that it will be different.
If I can find a pushfit Schrader valve I will be golden. Actually, I have several Schrader valves already, from broken inner tubes! I wonder if I could use those?
My friends call me Nader. My foes just run.
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Andrew
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by Andrew » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Depends on how rigid/thick the wall of the bike tube is, around the base of the valve. I fear that the pressure in the PC will just push the valve out through the hole in the back of the PC. It's worth a try, but test it, under safe conditions, to a pressure higher than what you intend to pressurise the PC (including after pumping).

Look in car or motorbike shops for the push-fit Schrader valves (possibly try cycling stores too, some bike tyres are tubeless). You'll want one like this, with a nice big rubber mushroom on the inside of the PC. The best thing is they pretty much self seal, you don't need to bond them to the PC.

soakinader
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Re: Boing! APH with a twist!

Post by soakinader » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:05 pm

That is sick. Thanks Andrew!
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