CPS 1200 Issue

For questions, articles and discussions regarding water blaster maintenance and repairs.
User avatar
atvan
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:19 pm
Location: A place you've never heard of

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by atvan » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:16 pm

It is rubber, so it can take it. I assume that that is normal- you only want the bulb to expand, not the neck.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:33 pm

I'm not really worried about the bladder anymore; I read on SSC that it's normal. What I am worried about is the rubber band repair job. It doesn't seem to be working very well. Of course, I won't know until I test it, but right now I'm waiting for the epoxy to dry completely.
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

User avatar
atvan
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:19 pm
Location: A place you've never heard of

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by atvan » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:12 pm

Hope it turns out well.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:42 am

Argh, the rubber band repair isn't working. The rubber band doesn't push the valve all the way closed. Maybe I should try to find a tighter rubber band? The one that's on there now is pretty tight, but not as tight as the one shown in the SSC article.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Edit: Alright, I tightened the rubber band, and it seemed to work, so I closed it up again, and filled the reservoir for testing. At first, when I pumped, water again started coming out of the nozzle, so I messed around with the trigger. Then it seemed to fix itself; the pump got really hard, so I only pumped it 3 or 4 times, and pulled the trigger. With a loud "PHSSHT", water blasted out of the nozzle much faster than when it was stock, and flew to the other end of the driveway, the stream only lasting for about half a second. Then the valve got stuck again, then it worked again, and it was on-and-off like this for a while, but then the pump seemed to stop working. I looked it up on SSC, and found out that happens if you have too many balloons and you don't disable the PRV. But I did disable the PRV.

I re-opened it, added another rubber band, and the valve seems to be okay now, but the pump still won't seem to pump anything. It's as if a check valve got busted or something. Help would be tremendously appreciated.
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

DX
Posts: 3495
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:35 am
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by DX » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:05 pm

There are only a few things I can think of. It's a weird problem that I've never faced before. If it will not hold more pressure, but is also not leaking, then something is still allowing water to come back out of the PC. However, the disabled PRV is blocking it from returning to the reservoir. There is a high chance that the problem lies somewhere between these points.

If it weren't CPS, I'd think it had an air leak and somehow water wasn't leaking with it, however that should not matter in a 1200.

If the pump can't draw, usually it means the seal is too tight or the tube is clogged. Neither of these should be the case. However, check the tubes to make sure stuff didn't get in while sawing and gluing the PRV.

One thing I would check is the PRV area. Note how in SSC's pic, a larger section was cut that includes part of the valve. If your narrower cut did not include this piece, perhaps it is venting pressure or something. It should not because it is sealed, but It is worth another look.

Check the pump again when it is having that problem. Is it full or empty? Also check the PC again. The amount of balloons you have should be no problem for the pump to fill up, considering how a totally stock pump can push a 105 balloon PC to the walls in 9 pumps. Yours should actually feel like my 12K from the community war, which is almost like pumping a stock 1200. It feels a bit harder, but not nearly as much as in a heavy K.

Alternatively, see what happens if you remove balloons. It should not change anything because of the disabled PRV. If something does change, there's an issue.

That's all I can think of right now. If you'd like, I can K-mod one of my 1200 MK2's with a PRV and all and try to replicate your problems. Worst comes to worst, I can give you a 1200 MK1 replacement.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:43 pm

I already checked the pump shaft, and that looked fine.

I also looked the PRV area over, and even tried pumping it to see if air was coming out, but nothing happened. The CPS chamber doesn't even need air to pressurize, right?

I'll try to find out what the pump is doing while pumping water; I sure hope it's not a big issue. A little bit of water does come out of the nozzle when I fire, so it has to be pumping at least some water into the chamber.
That's all I can think of right now. If you'd like, I can K-mod one of my 1200 MK2's with a PRV and all and try to replicate your problems. Worst comes to worst, I can give you a 1200 MK1 replacement.
Go ahead, if you have the time, and don't mind risking the life of one of your 1200s. As for a replacement, you certainly don't have to give me one, but if you don't need it, I can pay you for it (Assuming I can't do anything with mine.).
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

User avatar
atvan
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:19 pm
Location: A place you've never heard of

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by atvan » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:05 pm

Go ahead, if you have the time, and don't mind risking the life of one of your 1200s
Psssst: he has 5 :goofy:

Hope you figure out the problem.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:11 am

One problem down, two more to solve...

It turned out that the check valve that prevented water from pumping back into the reservoir was jammed by a little blue piece from the PRV. I got it out, and it works again, so that's no longer an issue.

Unfortunately, I'm now having the same problems that I did before; the pump is almost rock-hard, and I can only get 2 pumps (Barely.). I tested it while it was still open, to see how things were doing, and when I pump, the pressure is so great that it's forcing the PC off of the tube with the O-rings on it. And I only have 35 balloons on it! Could they be a lot thicker than the ones most people use (They don't seem that thick.)? One possiblity is that part of the PC got stuck in something when I screwed the case closed, as it was pretty hard to hold it closed. But I thought that was just the neck, which doesn't expand, and is normally hard to get back into the case, according to SSC. Either way, I'm going to open the PC case again to check things over.

And the stupid trigger valve still won't close all the way. It always works fine when there's no water in it, but as soon as I shoot it, it gets stuck (Most of the time.).

Edit: I took the PC case off, and went outside to try and test it without the PC case. Well, that turned out to be a bad idea, because the PC blew off. Basically, the same thing is happening. I have no idea what the problem is.
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

User avatar
atvan
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:19 pm
Location: A place you've never heard of

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by atvan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:37 pm

For the trigger, try putting somehing solid between the RB and the pin. Might help put more force into it.

I know it would be a pain, but ypu might have to unK it.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

DX
Posts: 3495
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:35 am
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by DX » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:24 pm

What kind of balloons are you using? Do you have a pic? That shouldn't be the culprit, but who knows. Somehow, ridiculous pressure is being generated to the point where you can't pump against it more than twice. I'd also want to know how much water is making it into the PC with those 2 pumps. It could be a negative pressure pump issue. If air can't replace the water drawn into the pump, it gets really hard, if not impossible, to pump. However, CPS guns have intakes in the reservoir cap for this purpose so this really shouldn't be it.

If this were a game of stump the chump, congrats you've won.

It's usually difficult to re-close the PC after k-modding. It's also a good idea to hold onto the PC when testing it outside the casing, lolz.

Another idea I thought of, perhaps the balloons are too strong for the pump and thus the bladder refuses to expand. The 2 pumps worth of water is all that would get in and then the pump hits a wall. I can't see how this would happen, but it fits all the criteria of what's been going down. In that case, taking balloons off would work. They'd have to be balloons of iron considering how a 100 balloon K-mod does work with a stock 2100 pump.

Or, your 2nd check valve is blocked and barely letting anything through. That would create the same effects.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

marauder
Posts: 3975
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: Charleston
WWN League Team: Havoc
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by marauder » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:41 pm

Take pictures of the area where you removed the check valve. Take pictures of the area from where the PC connects to the rest of the pipes, to the firing pin and the nozzle. Take pictures of everything. If you disabled the the check valve successfully, there is no known reason for your gun to be too difficult to pump. Pictures may bring something new to light, and then we can help you from there.

If, at the end of all this, you still cannot stop your 1200 from continuing to fire after the trigger has been released, you should look into replacing the spring on the firing pin. If that all else fails, you can drill a hole in the exterior, outside of the firing pin. That way, when you encounter this problem, you can manually push the firing pin forward, ending your shot. I did this with my 2100 for when the rubber bands failed.
https://hydrowar.wordpress.com/
SEAL wrote:If you ain't bloody and muddy by the end of the day, you went to a Nerf war.

DX
Posts: 3495
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:35 am
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by DX » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:17 pm

Hey Seal, if you want a replacement, this will only set you back about $26:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200665580971?ss ... 1423.l2661

It's the one from before and amazingly failed to sell at that price.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:27 pm

I'll take some pictures. To me, it doesn't seem like any water is getting pumped into the PC at all. It's not expanding.

DX: Thanks for the link, but I'm very tight-wadded at the moment, and I'm not really buying much.

Edit: Pictures:

Overall view.
Image

Here's a close-up of the PC, showing how thick the balloons made it.
Image

Close-up of the PRV area, showing where I cut it.
Image

And here's a zoom of the valve area. The rubber bands don't really seem to help much, but I can't put them on in the same way as shown on SSC, because the 1200's valve is way smaller than the example in that article (2700?).
Image
If this were a game of stump the chump, congrats you've won.
No, it's a game of stump the chump with a dump of a pump. :goofy:
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

Andrew
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:10 pm
Location: Durham, England

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by Andrew » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:38 pm

That PC does look quite large from that angle, and it's possible that the pump has enough volume to expand that enough to press against the casing after two pumps. When I experimented XPS modding my XP70 (mainly for multi-angle shot advantage) I found after about 8 pumps the pump rod suddenly went solid, as the balloons were pressing against the outside of the PC (they were really small water bomb balloons).

Before you remove all of the ballons (only to find that wasn't the problem) try removing the entire PC and pump water from the reservoir so it comes out of the PC connector, to make sure that the pump is fine. Then place your hand over the end (where the PC was) and try to pump to ensure the check valves are fine (obviously if they are, your hand should be forced off the connecting pipe). You could try the second trick whilst pumping air only, to see if pressure builds up beneath your hand. If it passes both tests, then I'm afraid less ballons is the answer (unless you want to expand the PC casing itself to accomodate the extra thick PC).

As for the trigger, could anything be between the seal and the wall of the pull valve (something small which can move around inside the valve, but too large to exit through the nozzle)?

EDIT: Rogue spelling errors removed
Last edited by Andrew on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
atvan
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:19 pm
Location: A place you've never heard of

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by atvan » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:19 pm

When you pump, do you see any water moving through that tubing?
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:52 pm

I took off 20 balloons, so there's only 15 on there now, and it didn't make any difference at all. In fact, the PC blew off even with the casing on it! It's getting really irritating. Maybe I should try it without any balloons, to see if something got messed up. My brother thinks it's normal that the PC wants to come off, and the blaster casing holds it on when the blaster is closed up. I'm not so sure.

Another thing I noticed is that a lot of air seems to come out when I fire, and not much water. That's probably because I can't pump much water into it, right?

atvan: The pump is absolutley fine. I pumped it without the PC on, and water came out of the hole, as it should.

Also, the trigger valve still sticks open, seemingly only when I have water in it. I doubt the problem is inside the valve, because if that was the case, it wouldn't work at all, even when I push it back.
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

Andrew
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:10 pm
Location: Durham, England

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by Andrew » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:22 pm

So the pump is fine; water is definitley being moved from reservoir to PC therefore, intuitively, the problem lies with the PC (or something around that area). Unfortunately trying with no balloons may be the only way to check whats wrong for sure. If it works without the balloons, then those are really strong balloons and you may have to just add a few. If not, then either the PC has (somehow) gone rock solid with age (unlikely as you were using it and, it worked, before the mod), there is something blocking the opening of the PC (again unlikely, it would have blocked the check valves and any filters first) or that PRVD has failed horribly (the internals look slightly different to DX's pic, have ALL of the PRV internal pieces been removed or could glue have got where it shouldn't?). Again, I can't really see how, the images suggest you have done it right.

That reminds me, did you remove the "blue thingamabob" in the end. If not, you may want to do that (post a pic first though, if you can the last thing I want is for you to damage it further). Generally people used to remove the WHOLE PRV, which (I believe) would include that piece (though a description or pic of exactly where this piece was may help). I believe you mentioned that SSC stated similar effects would occur if the PRV had not been disabled. It is possible that this piece moves to prevent further pumping once a certain pressure is reached (so you don't blow up anything), and at the same time, it would allow water back into the reservoir, reducing the pressure automatically allowing you to resume pumping (although I can't currently see how they'd engineer such a device, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done!). If the water now has nowhere to go, this piece may be preventing further pumps. If you have no intention of gluing the old piece back in later, you wouldn't lose anything by removing more of the PRV. I think the liklihood of this paragrapgh being the problem is slim, as I am pretty sure that is not how PRV's work in Super Soakers. I may be wrong, and it may well be worth a try, but it seems too complex for a massed produced water gun. The blue piece could, however, be blocking something when water is pumped under pressure. Removing this piece may be worthwhile if, as stated before, you don't intend on re-fitting the PRV.

Moving to the trigger valve, if pushing it forward manually does seal it, then that would imply not enough force is being applied to close the valve on it's own (that or it's catching on something as it moves forward). If all else fails with the trigger, you could open it up and check the condition of the seal and internal spring (could be rusty/very old and lacking in force??) and replace where necessary. Sometimes a misaligned firing pin can cause such problems as it can prevent the valve moving fully forward on it's own due to increased friction, or a misaligned seal. Careful with the elastic bands, they can make this problem worse if care is not taken (assuming that is the problem to begin with).

User avatar
atvan
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:19 pm
Location: A place you've never heard of

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by atvan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:14 pm

Get the rubber bands you get with lettuce, and fold them over.

As for the other thing, maybe G Jiv swapped your ballons for his. :goofy:
Depending on the fitting for the PC, you could go throught the tedious process of making your own. Even if you just did ~20 balloons to test, that would work. If it does, you can make a bladder with balloons alone, and be remembered as the first to replace a spherical PC in a stock gun! (among all 10 of us :goofy:)
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV
Well, not that much soakage.
Beware the Purple

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by SEAL » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:37 am

Yeah, I was thinking it would come to just taking off all the balloons and seeing what it does. I don't think they're too strong, as my brother was able to make a water balloon out of it. ( :x )

Andrew: Blue piece? There is still a blue X-shaped thing inside the tube on the left side, but that shouldn't be doing anything.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the trigger yet. It would be very tough to open the valve, because unlike the valve pictured on SSC (2700?), mine is glued closed.
~Hotel Oscar Golf~

We probably won't be back, but the legacy lives on.

Andrew
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:10 pm
Location: Durham, England

Re: CPS 1200 Issue

Post by Andrew » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:48 am

If it's on the left hand side of the cut, then you're right, that shouldn't have anything to do it. If the ballons definately aren't too strong, then the problem is with the PC itself, or something partially blocking something else (from the PRV possibly?). That shouldn't be the case as you did mention that water is moving rom the reservoir to the PC connector, when the PC isn't on, implying that the PC is infact the problem. You could make a second test PC out of ballons only (not too many). That would tell you if the PC is the problem for definate, or whether it is the pump that is unable to handle the pressure (possibly due to a partial blockage??). Afterwards, a test with the PC and no ballons may be required to see if the PC is at fault.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests