Frozen Fury 3 [New Haven CT] November 28-30th, 2014

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:35 pm

Alfatrooper, that's great. What guns does your neighbor have? If you need to borrow some, we got you covered.

SEAL, hopefully everyone has as much fun as possible, so with that in mind what would you like to see us play?


I really would like to continue the rivalry, but if this war doesn't look conducive to it, e.g. if it looks like it will best facilitate the type of rounds that most people don't want to play as a rivalry then, with Rob's consent as host, we don't have to do it. I still like objective based rivalry games, but I can see where you would rather play rivalry rounds as long OHS. What about OHS at night? We need to take everyone's opinion into account, so if you could provide us with some specifics that would be great. We spend a lot of time saying what we would have done differently when we give our community war summaries. Well, now is the chance to implement those changes. What rounds do you enjoy? What do you dislike? Sometimes the battlefield definitely plays a factor in this, so perhaps there are certain conditions to which you'd prefer an alternate. If everyone could give us specific examples that would be great.

Let's get some specific rounds thrown out there guys. Give us input.

I know Rob is working hard to find us a good battle location, but as has been pointed out earlier, sometimes the best battles are just at night around the yard or in an urban area.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:57 pm

Obviously, everyone is going to try to pick their strengths when it comes to the rivalry. An urban environment (especially certain nighttime environments; schools and portables are good) puts the rivalry on more even ground than one with mixed terrain and foliage, without any hard points.

I vote for the even ground. For the games that are more mental than physical where being able to win a footrace doesn't mean you'll win the game. Even in these situations, I'm still outmatched since I don't have the same reflexes, but at least it'll be more about how you play and less about how you run.

Hopefully we won't miss night rounds again. Those always end up being some of the most fun games, so that's high up on my list for Frozen Fury. At this point, I'd rather deal with the cold than deal with missed ambush opportunities that I can't do during the day.

The thing is, I know even Brandon loves those kinds of games (don't deny you enjoyed the Soakemore portables), even if they don't put much advantage to having long range running capabilities. Everyone loves those games because they're fast, frantic, and crazy. Ambushes here, blind-fire there, so much movement so fast, yet still more forgiving to the less physically adept at the same time. While I don't mind the large woods hunting game, this is still my type and is the reason I love church Nerf wars.

As for the game types, I have less interest in multi-stage objective than I did before, but I'd still play it if we find a suitable area and set up. I'm a huge sucker for 1-flag CTF; the slowest runner on our rivalry team has made 2 flag captures so far and is still counting. 1-flag needs to be played in well-setup areas though, and we need to be able to refill and switch roles very quickly. I think having 4 rounds instead of 2 may be more appropriate, in order to fill a 20-30 minute time gap.

I'm up for rivalry wars at most suitable battle locations. Heck, I'll play rivalry 1-flag CTF at Northgate. Those rounds were a lot of fun.

I still enjoyed Pandemonium, but didn't quite get to make the plays I wish I got to. Most woods environments make it very difficult to get close-range stealth kills, which is my favorite way to play. I can still stand-off and 1-on-1 people in the open, but it's not as fun IMO, at least without the opportunity for something interesting to happen.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:04 pm

I'll say this. If we have to play at Northgate/the Foundry (especially the far back one) everyone has to be 100% committed to getting there early. It is a legitimate 20+ minute hike and since people have been slow to get up in the morning it can take a long time to get to the actual fighting. I don't want that for this war. We need a plan. We need set times and we need to hold each other accountable. Pack everything the night before and get up when the alarm goes off. Tony and Danny and I were outside for about an hour before we got picked up, and we only went outside 10 minutes before we were supposed to get picked up.

I want to fight somewhere cool, but most importantly I want to fight and fight a lot. Paine maximizes the amount of time we can spend fighting, but it's probably not that conducive to exciting warfare given its winter state.


Also, slightly unrelated, but I'm 100% down for an all day war sometime, hopefully next year that is all rivalry. In the meantime let's focus on what we can do for Frozen Fury.

What's everyone's preference as to the previous sites? Paine? Northgate? Foundry? Beacon Factory? Which would you enjoy playing at again? How would that impact the games you'd wanna play? Which do you not wanna play at?
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:10 pm

My favorite sites so far have been the factory and Northgate barn & foundry. Northgate mansion less so. Paine probably won't work in winter.

The factory is going to be big. I believe it has not yet been used to its full potential. Some adjustments will be needed though, such as seeing if we can get a better route to large room building. The barn and foundry will probably start to get stale after playing a second time, but they're still fun places. We need to adjust foundry 1-flag CTF based on the player count. I think a higher time limit will do, as the defense will eventually run dry anyway. Perhaps closer attacker spawns would help too, if the player count favors the defense too much.

Anyway, I think ideally, we'll have new locations as primary with the factory as a backup, then Northgate foundry/barn as a last resort. Frozen Fury has always relied on structures, not foliage, and that can't really change.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by DX » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:46 am

The small refinery I scouted yesterday is gold. The buildings are arranged so that there can be building vs building CTF, Outpost, etc. and there are many ways in. You can also go around the perimeter and down the middle. The main building is also large enough with enough entrances that we could play siege-style 1 flag CTF. The flag is in the middle of the building and attackers start outside.

Advantages of the new location:

.Short car ride from my house <10 min
.Easy access from a public park in the woods
.No apparent security patrols
.Fairly obscure area
.Safe public parking well away from the facility

Things to work on:

.Active lumber company next door that is open on Saturdays. We may have to play here on Sunday only.
.The easiest way in is the main gate, which is...wide open. If it were to...not be...wide open, we'd be facing a 3 rail, barbed wire fence. We need to scout again around the perimeter for backup in/out points.
.There are some junk piles on the property that contain toxic chemicals and should not be disturbed.
.The pond on the property is, I would imagine, contaminated. There is clean water available in the streams and swamp in the park nearby, but you have to exit the facility in order to get at it, which could be risky. That also eats up valuable time. We'd probably have to use light guns, even medium could be too thirsty.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:53 am

If we use the new location we could bring in a certain amount of water per person if we all have backpacks. Just keep it organized and we wouldn't have to exit much. Even so, it'd probably be best not to go in with CPS 2000s. By light do you mean 5x nozzles (plus Vindicator) and below only? I think that would still be a lot of fun.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:09 am

I don't think our definition of light primaries has changed much, which has always excluded CPS 5x's and by extension, the Vindicator. But if we're focusing on field life, there may not be reason to ban anything, but to ration water by team and players. Anyone who runs out has to borrow from their team or deal with it. This may not work if the games favor outnumbered teams.

Perhaps I should try to ship something over, if I don't make the 10-hour drive.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:18 am

I still think there is some confusion over what "light" means. I am fine with using 5x nozzles, or fine with just using my Gorgon assuming it's going to work. We could use Gorgons, 250s, 275s, Vanquishers, Tiger Sharks, even allow the Vindicator on the 2nd largest nozzle. I am fine with either option.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by SEAL » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:32 pm

DX, do you have any pictures of this site? Where is it?

I did not mean to say that rivalry games should only be 1HS (if I said that then that was a mistake). I am totally down with doing 1HK, CTF, whatever, as long as it's more tactical than the games that you guys usually do. I prefer it to be like a war, not a game. Picture 1-flag CTF where the flag is held in one of the buildings at the insane asylum, and the attackers start far away and have all day to take the flag. That would require a lot of people, but you get the idea. Ideally, each rivalry war would be one battle.

To answer marauder's question, I already told you what I want to play. If that ain't possible then maybe several scaled-down games or something? A game like the one at the portable classroom maze, lasting about an hour or so would be pretty fun, if we can find a suitable place. I liked the size of the portable battlefield for 2v2, but we might want to look for a bigger location for 5v5 or whatever. Something else I'd like to play is a longer-distance single-sided defense game, whether it be HTL or 1CTF. If we can use the power plant then that would be an awesome place to defend (I'm talking the whole building here), maybe with like 10 flags for the offense to take. Aside from that I have nothing to say. What I absolutely do not want to play are games where each team starts in sight of each other and fights a stagnated battle where everybody knows where everybody else is, and never leaves the same spot.

Out of the previous sites, my favorite was probably Paine. Northgate is pretty open in the winter (Paine is too, but at least there's more space to work with), the foundry has very limited replayability, and the factory needs some serious work before it can be good. There's also a lot of open space. I definitely think we should find a new place though. DX's location sounds promising, and hopefully I'll get a chance to check out that chemical plant this weekend.

I agree that everyone should move quickly. Y'all are talking about how far you have to come to attend, so make the most of it. Unless you just want to go with my other idea of battling not being the main focus. I mean, I'd rather come down for a day of goofing around and hanging out with the occasional battle, than come down for a war where we fight a couple rounds, and the rest of the time do nothing. I remember waiting in my car for like two hours at Frozen Fury last year. Was it fun? NO. Thanks for asking.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:33 pm

I'm up for pretty much anything whether it be long serious rounds or short laid back rounds, heck even just hanging out. The problem is I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to come. I'd probably be driving myself, and as you know my endurance for long trips isn't that great but it is also Thanksgiving weekend so what normally takes me 7-8 hours could take 9-10. There is also the problem that I have an exam on Monday morning which means I would have to leave on Sunday. In short, I would be spending up to 20 hours in a car for pretty much one day, I'm just not sure I am willing to do that. I will talk to my professor though, he said there are no makeup tests but it is possible that I could take it the week before if I ask him in advance. Will have too see, I have a bad cold and my head is spinning, so I can't think to clearly about all this right now to figure out if it will work.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:21 pm

^ Aww naw! Your team needs you, and I need a target I can hit! =D Well good luck, and I hope you feel better soon.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:26 am

Scott, Nick (Belisaurius) is coming up from Baltimore. You two could totally ride together and definitely make it back in time for your exam on Monday. I know he's going to be back before Monday for sure.
SEAL wrote:I remember waiting in my car for like two hours at Frozen Fury last year. Was it fun? NO. Thanks for asking.
Yeah, I was pretty annoyed at standing out in the snow for like 45 minutes waiting to get picked up. No sleeping in this year. Seriously. If you need your sleep that bad then go to bed early. Newtown is between Danbury (Tony and Danny's) and Easton, so if we go with this new site I will probably not be seeing anyone until we get to the actual battle site...so if people sleep in you need to seriously like start playing loud music or something. No excuses, because it sucks for everyone else. Everyone please have everything you need packed in the car the night before.

If at all possible I'd like to start fighting at first light. I know, that's absolutely crazy. Brandon, if you want, or if you are willing to get up that early you can stop in Danbury, because I'm pretty sure it's on your way, and we can all carpool so that we have less vehicles at the site. Or, we can just meet you there, and we can play a long battle where we start not in sight of each other and play until everyone else gets there. It's absolutely insane, but how cool would it be to fight like that with the sun coming up? Sunrise (in Newtown) for that Saturday is at 6:56 AM and sunset is at 4:25 PM. That's about 9 and a half hours worth of daylight. I want to get the maximum amount of playing time in possible. If people get tired and want to rest, I am alright with that, but SEAL and DX and whoever else wants can keep fighting with me. I'm dead serious. We have talked about eating on the run before, and I don't have a problem with this, although I know some people will need time to rest to eat. It's completely insane, but if anyone wants to meet me there at 6:50 in the AM I will be there and we can make this the most efficient, awesome war ever. At MOAB Rob and Sam and I stayed up until about 12:30 or 1 scouting the battlefield. Being sleepy wasn't that great, but I seriously believe that if we hadn't have done that we would have never found each other when the SEALs split us up. Everyone knew where to go. Oh, and it was also tons of fun and now I have that great memory of stomping around in the woods with 2 good friends late at night almost falling into a hole, seeing Owls, and planning our attack. It's totally worth it.

*edit*
If this is the Maybrook Railyard Rob is scouting out then this may be a seriously awesome place to fight. https://www.flickr.com/photos/7652577@N ... otostream/
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:28 am

lol, I never knew where to go at MOAB, other than to follow you and Rob.

I would prefer to get more sleep, but this is a group vote. It seems like the early birds outnumber the night owls here, and night wars will be tricky with the extra cold. We should probably start the actual games an hour or later after sunrise to give time for things to warm up. Iced up refills are not fun. Perhaps we need to carry out water, or find a way to keep it agitated (as you would with concrete) to keep it from freezing.

I'll need to book the flight soon. Didn't get the new job, and I'm running out of PTO for the year. I'll have to manage, but at least I have Thanksgiving and Black Friday off. I may be able to go early if I can beat the holiday rush, but that'll be up to Rob and whether he gets that time off.

I guess I'm less urgent about getting in as much trigger time as possible, but if everyone else wants this, I'll go for it. The new location shows a lot of promise too, although I don't know hot we'll get a whole day of games in there. Based on previous history of getting kicked from games, my guess is that we can go 2 to 4 hours before something happens. Places like the factory were not subject to that so much due to the area's seclusion.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by SEAL » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:59 pm

I'm not sure about getting started that early. Though I can get up as early as I need to, I am by no means an "early bird". I'll sleep to around 10am if nobody wakes me up. This comes from frequent insomnia; if I go to bed at 10, I don't usually fall asleep until around 12, and if I wake up in the middle of the night (to go to the bathroom or whatever), it can take me several hours to get back to sleep. I rarely get a good full night's sleep, and I don't have much energy during the day until the afternoon. My energy level usually spikes in the late evening. The point I am trying to make by saying all of this is that if I have to get up at like 4:30 to get there in time, I am going to be dead on my feet all day unless I can somehow get to sleep at like 8 and stay asleep. That's not going to happen. I'll also have to be well-rested ahead of time.

So if we're indeed going to go hard and try to get as much playing time in as possible, why not have longer rounds? That pretty much guarantees more fighting time, a lot more so then trying to get everyone up early and moving quickly. Even if we don't get started 'till like 10 or 11, we could just fight until late at night. I really don't think I'd be staying overnight, but you guys could keep the battles going after I leave.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:46 pm

Here is the crux of the issue:

We want to maximize fighting but we also want to sleep in. Unfortunately these are mutually exclusive, meaning you can't have both, unless you are seriously willing to sacrifice playing venue or amount of people involved.

Here's why -

The Refinery in Newtown is across the road from a lumber company which operates from 8 to noon on Saturday. Entry into the refinery during those hours is likely to draw attention and get us kicked out. Waking up at 8 and starting at 10 means bringing in 10+ people and equipment right past the lumber company in the middle of their work day.

If you are not ok with taking that risk but still want to sleep in the only option is to try an alternate venue.

The brick factory etc. has guards. That's not an option.

Maybrook Rail Yard is more secure but is also smaller than the Refinery in Newtown. It looks really cool, but the size is really just 1 building not much larger than the Theater at the first Frozen Fury. It is also the furthest away from everyone coming from CT or further south.

The Factory is fairly safe and is much larger than Maybrook Rail Yard but would require a lot of changes to make everyone happy. It's also further from the majority of people that are coming.

North Gate is completely safe but requires a 15 minute hike to get to the Cornish Estate and a close to 35 minute hike to get to the Foundry. This is on top of being the second to the furthest site away from the majority of the participants.

Paine is also completely safe but lacks much cover. It's also super easy to run around in circles for hours without finding each or maneuvering without any real action after you've actually found each other. This isn't a problem for Brandon and it wouldn't be a problem for me except that I'm thinking of Tony, Danny, Sam, and showing Alphatrooper a good time at his first Comm War.


Also, while I am completely interested in night battles they are less of a guarantee for me than getting up early is. I cannot say at what time the boys have to be home. We may be able to be out all night, but I may also have to leave on Sunday and thus the family would want to spend SAT evening together. Sleeping in is always good on a physiological level. Believe me, I'm not a morning person, but in this instance it also jeapordizes everything that we've ever said in the past that we don't want to do at future wars - waste time in getting there, show up when there are lots of people around who may call the cops on us, play at a backup venue.

Lastly, I leave you with this. I really dislike the idea of playing in NY. Ideally no one should have to drive further than an hour away to fight but if anyone should it should be the Spangs. Before you get mad at me take that as a compliment. Who is always there on time and ready to fight? Brandon, Keith, and Jon. Furthermore, they all come in 1 car, so that's only 1 group of people to be concerned about. If we play in NY that leaves multiple groups to drive the distance. That's more things that can go wrong. That's more people that can have car trouble or wake up late or noobs (nerfers) and old members (like wetmonkey) who may not come because they have to be home at a certain time or because they get lost on the way. If something goes wrong in CT we can always go back to Paine. If we play in NY and get kicked out, do we then drive 30 minutes to one of last years sites and spend 30 more minutes hiking in to fight? And then if we do play in NY we won't be able to have night battles there and Brandon already said he's highly unlikely to be spending the night at Rob's. Thus, if you want to fight at night we have to fight in CT near Easton. The more variables there are the more things can go wrong. If Rob ultimately decides to fight somewhere in NY then I will go of course, but I argue that we are putting ourselves at a much greater risk of repeating the issues we've had in years past.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:40 pm

I thought we were going to the refinery after the work hours and/or on Sunday. If we want to get in early Saturday, that requires everyone in agreement to hit it early. Although I do suppose it's easier to push an early bird event than it is to push curfews.

Anyway, I don't think we should have as many problems this time. Rob's circadian rhythms have been set by the internship, and I get up at 6 everyday for work anyway. We all have alarm systems and there are plenty of blasters to use in assistance, but we do need a fairly locked down curfew.

The rivalry is another concern. We wait fairly close teams in terms of numbers as well as overall skill, but it looks like our team is stacking up to be larger this time. It'll be in our disfavor with the nephews on our team and their hits counting normally, but it's something for everyone to consider. If alfatrooper attends, we also have to place him on one of the teams, which seems more likely to be with us if he knows Rob well through Nerf.

Anyway, with everyone being busy, these are not the easiest times for a community war. Perhaps it's time for me to drop my Nerf projects for the time being and commit to this (along with some urgent things I have to deal with this week and next).
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:55 pm

The problem with going to the refinery on Sunday is that a lot of people may not be able to make it. Nick is definitely only coming for one day, but there are plenty of other people that can't solidly commit to fighting the entire weekend. Your point that we could go after hours is definitely valid, but that means that we would be playing at Paine or another close site during the morning. I am ok with that if that's what everyone else wants.

Tony and Danny's hits counting does disadvantage us, but we can't just wait until they are on an even playing field. They are on our team and it would feel unfair to the enemy if we declared them off limits until they were better shots or better at dodging or could pump quicker or _ insert excuse here. If we lose we lose. If we win we win, and winning is much sweeter when there are no excuses.

Oh...and id really like to have a rivalry round at night.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by HBWW » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:38 pm

Sounds like the winning state of mind. Honestly, I was ready to try out the rivalry last year even after wetmonkey bailed, but we didn't have great chances.

This time, things are going to be different though. I'll drop a note in the team forum.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by SEAL » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:02 pm

So I just did a bit of math. (You'd think I'd be sick of math by now, haha.) Doing four two-hour rounds in one day gives us 8 total hours of playing time. Now, lets look at my Downpour 2013 schedule for day 1 (probably one of the most efficient schedules of any war), with its mix of ten rounds ranging between 15 minutes and 1.5 hours. If that schedule had gone precisely according to plan, we would've only gotten in about 7.5 hours of fighting time that day. Obviously in reality, we got significantly less than that. (I didn't calculate it because I forget how long each round actually ended up being, but I'm guessing it's around 5hrs total.)

What does this mean? Longer battles lead to more fighting time. So if we really want to make this the most efficient war ever, play longer rounds! My recommendation is to go with four two-hour rounds, so we're guaranteed (barring getting kicked out, but that's a risk no matter what) to get in at least 8 hours (more than any other war by far). Assuming we'd have around 12 hours of total time available to play (we'd have more if we started very early), that means we could take over half an hour of breaktime in between each battle. That'll give people plenty of time to rest, eat, and get ready for the next one. We could also do two four-hour rounds, which would give us over an hour to rest in between, but that's up to you guys.

My round preferences would be 1HS obviously, as well as a large-scale defense game of some type (and switch sides). 1HK wouldn't really work because you'd have eliminated people potentially waiting around for a long time (plus the round might end early and we'd lose some fighting time). Maybe we could do some kind of long distance, multi-flag CTF where whichever team has the most flags at the end wins (or we could make each flag worth like 5-10 points or something). We'd have to avoid putting all the flags in one place so as to not have all the action happening in the same two areas the whole two or four hours. I would be perfectly fine with making these rivalry rounds. Then after night falls we could either do another long battle (maybe shortened to 1 or 1.5 hours) or just a couple short casual rounds, if people can still stand up.

My logic is flawless. If our goal is to fight as much as possible, I really think we should go with this idea, at least for one day (I don't even know if I can make it for both). If you guys think that's too much, then maybe we should rethink our goal. Like I said, I would rather turn this into a party-type event where we just have fun (but centered around water guns) than do some kind of half-assed war where we're trying to fight a lot but end up only getting like 2 or 3 hours in per day, the rest of the time doing nothing. Either go hard or go casual, but nothing in between.
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marauder
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Post by marauder » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:51 pm

Is there any way we could do some type of capture the flag style round that's not actually capture the flag? ... let me explain. In laser tag (at least at laser quest) you can shoot a team's base an infinite number of times. Each time you get a certain number of points. I would like to try something like this, not shooting a base, but being able to raid a base an infinite number of times rather than having flags that can be capture or recaptured. We could still have flags, just use an infinite number of engineering tape strips, but once a flag has been captured it cannot be captured. That would be a very simple way of counting flags as points because there are an unlimited number of points to get. Or, we could do a hybrid version where flags count for 10 points and hits on people count for 1 point. We used that in 2 Vermin Wars and it worked out really well.

Multiple ways of winning (e.g. through flags, hits, or both) create a greater variety of tactical options, which would be better and more fun for longer rounds.
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