What Lies Ahead for Community Wars

[SEAL]

We've been hosting community wars in pretty much the same fashion for three years now. Someone hosts a war, a few regulars show up (often with guests) and stay for a weekend of several 1HS/1HK and occasional objective-based (usually HTL or CTF) rounds, generally around half an hour in length. While this has been fun, I think it's about time for a revision for the 2014 season.

First of all, I'm wondering if it would perhaps be better if instead of having just one person host everything, we have each event be organized by the entire community. The first Downpour was kind of like this. Perhaps what we should do is agree on a location such as a state park somewhere (with a backup location or two, obviously), which is convenient for everyone. This way one person doesn't have to worry about doing everything, and hopefully attendance will be boosted as well.

As far as games go, I think we should go with a "playlist" system instead of what we've been doing. A precise, concrete schedule works in the military; not here. Instead we should simply make up a list of games that we want to play for each war, and just do them whenever we can. We should still figure out the games ahead of time, but the time at which they are played doesn't matter.

With that said, we need to figure out exactly how the fighting will be done. Right now we mostly do several different short rounds and a longer round or two each war. While this does offer variety, it hasn't proved to be extremely efficient in terms of total time spent fighting. I think we should either go one way or the other; nothing in between. We could either do it Nerf-style, and just have a ton of short, yet action-packed rounds in small areas, or we could do it Ridgewood-style, and have long, hardcore battles spread out over the entire park. As you can probably guess, I'd generally prefer the latter, though that would probably require not only more players, but more players who are willing and able to fight that way. We could either have multiple long (2-3 hours) rounds of various types (1HK, 1HS, CTF, etc.), or one long round that lasts the entire day, and possibly into the night as well. That would be really great, and I've wanted to do something like that for a while. Perhaps we could do wars of both types.

Which brings me to the subject of rival teams. I know it's kind of dead at the moment (my team forum hasn't seen activity since like MOAB), but I would like to get this going again. I liked the whole concept; it made water warfare feel more like a professional sport, and it was fun planning out tactics and such as a team. I guess it doesn't work so well with so few people, but perhaps we could do something with what we've got. DX has been talking about a "group" system, where there are two groups of people (me and my brothers forming one, and DX and M4 forming the other, if we're going by the old team configs) that can recruit teams each war out of whoever shows up. I don't like this idea as much as permanent teams, but perhaps it would work if implemented well. Also, if we are to do team rounds, I would vastly prefer that they'd be longer and more hardcore in nature. 12- or 24-hour rounds would be best. I didn't like how the last rivalry rounds just ended up being exactly the same as what we've been doing but with fixed teams. Not sure if the rest of you feel the same way, but I would really, really love to have battles like this.

Maybe we should also cut down on the amount of wars per year and focus on just getting more people to come. We could have one or two large wars each year, held in different areas (north and south, for instance). Maybe they could be the rivalry wars, though we might have to settle for more casual (but still large), Nerf-style wars until we get bigger. Of course, we could still do smaller wars as well, if for example marauder or CA99 happens to be in town, DX and I could meet up with him and fight, inviting whoever else might be interested. The ideal situation for me would be to have one or two large community wars where everyone is welcome (picture APOC, but water warfare-style), one super-hardcore 12- or 24-hour rivalry war, and maybe a few other smaller wars depending on the circumstances.

So what are your opinions on the future of community wars? How do you think they should be held? Discuss in this thread. I really want to someday build up to the same level of participation that Nerf has.

[the oncoming storm]

Something we should be doing is going on the nerf forums and inviting them to attend our wars as well, while allowing them to invite people to their wars using our forum.

[Nemesis]

That's an interesting idea. I wonder how many of them would be interested.

[marauder]

I am against dropping the number of wars per year to focus on one or two major wars. Having fewer wars won't increase the number of people who come because it's not about desire it's about availability. I would love to come to every single war of the year, but I can't because I live 1100 miles from New York City and 2 and a half hours away from a remotely sizeable airport. Other people have demanding work schedules. We want to come, the issue is timing.

If anything I would actually worry about it less and fight more. Think less of super wars and more of meet ups. We have several new members in the north east and I think zeda beta is going to be visiting NYC soon. Having a greater number of battles gives people more opportunity to make it. Keep the major wars, but try to have more local meet ups. Scott could host his own in the DC area with friends. You and DX could possibly meet people in the tristate area. I would love to see other members start their own in the midwest and west coast. Perhaps you get 1 person from the NIC or a friend or a new member to come to one of these and they have fun, then they might be back for the next one or for a big community war. Members who show up a lot less will also have a greater opportunity to hang out with the regulars and have fun. Make it fun and lighthearted. Maybe you do go have a serious all day hardcore battle. Or maybe you have a soakfest. It's all about whatever you're feeling. Perhaps you split it up with a day of hiking, or going white water rafting. I just think we need to stress out over this and just do more. Do more and attendance will grow.

As for the rivalry, I still want to do teams. My team still has some truly awesome stuff we have not leaked to the public yet. I'm not opposed to trying DX's groups idea either. I think we could experiment with doing both.

[SEAL]

That's actually sort of what I meant; less large wars and more small meetup-type wars. We could have one or two large regional wars each year that we plan out way ahead of time so we know when the most people can come. Such (a) war(s) would be the big event(s) that everyone looks forward to each year, while smaller battles could be happening almost every month, kind of like warmups for the big event(s). I'm not sure if that's possible or not, but I think it would be cool.

I don't know if inviting Nerfers would work that well, but maybe DX or anyone else on here who might have a presence in the NIC could look into it. I wouldn't mind it if they advertised here, but I don't know if they would simply because there are less people.

[DX]

Something we should be doing is going on the nerf forums and inviting them to attend our wars as well, while allowing them to invite people to their wars using our forum.

8 years in the NIC is telling me that approach won't work. The best way to get crossover players is to develop enough reputation in the NIC that you (universal you) can actually raise the subject of water wars (so it doesn't look like leeching) and then get positive feedback from it (rather than flamed, warned, or banned). Always remember that they are not anywhere near as laid back as we are. Think about the rules for the "Off Topic" section on NH - "Only post in the section if you know how to "use" it. If you have to ask, then don't post."

In other words, you need to be "real" or nobody will even listen to you. At the very minimum, you need to use NerfHaven effectively and meet regulars at wars. It helps to nerf with the admins and accrue experience. I still have trouble getting them interested and I've been to 70? wars.

And then, posting on forums is still not the most effective strategy - you want to be talking to people at wars and then following up by text message or PM. Again, you can't just message people, you really need to know them on the field.


I agree with Ben that we shouldn't cut down the number of wars, but rather shift the venues closer to where players are. Right now, most (all but 1) of our community wars have been held on the fringes of the map. I think in 2014, there should be at least one war in Maryland (at least Soakemore, as the island and school are great). There should be at least one war in New York City, maybe built around the public soakfest, so Wetmonkey, LinWarrior, and Poseidon have a better chance of making it. I'd also really like to have at least one war at Waterbridge in New Jersey. Wars like Downpour and Frozen Fury can still happen, but probably won't have the turnout we dream about.

I think a host or host/co-host system is still necessary, because there are many times when someone needs to take charge and make decisions. It especially helps when they know the terrain, which no one will know too well on neutral ground. By all means, we can try a meet-in-the-middle war, but it needs to be really well planned.

If a tight schedule is too much planning, a playlist is too little. I think it will work best with a "rolling" schedule, a list of games and durations in a set order, but the next one starts when people are ready. They do this at track meets where they know some event times will run longer or shorter than planned. There also needs to be flexibility in the schedule, with backup sets.

I also agree with Ben about mini-wars, where the war is not the only reason to meet up. We can do activities that "normal" friends would, and make a water war part of that. There's a lot of potential for this in NYC and the Hudson River Valley - places to see, places to eat, places to explore. No matter how broke I get, I always manage to keep gas money on hand for trips and exploration. I don't get to do things with people as often now, as my old friends are diasporic and scattered all over. I need to drive to NH, ME, MA, NJ, MD...NC...to have fun with people...and I have a 12 hour driving range tolerance...so it would be great to meet up more often and go out to see more of the region. Brandon/Keith/Jon, Andrew, LinWarrior, etc are all only 1.5 hours away.

I'm all for retrying the rivalry, but we don't fight as teammates often enough for the teams to "work". At least, not often enough to get on the mentally cohesive level required to act as a team. What we have suffices for temporary teams, the way Nerf wars switch up the teams for most rounds. But, there's many things I want to do, but can't when we're not all on the same page. We need to improve a couple things in order to have them.

. People want really long rounds, but can't sit in an ambush position for 30 minutes, or they get bored of stalking, or they even leave the ambush without telling you and vanish for 10 minutes. What do you think happens in a round longer than 2 hours? It isn't exactly 2 hours of fighting...maybe 15 minutes of fighting, 45 min of ambushing, and an hour of stalking/hunting. Sometimes it gets to like 30 minutes of fighting if there is not much concealment.
. People want more interesting tactical opportunities, but need to perform basic moves much more quickly. Proper clock management is the glue that holds all tactics together. Otherwise, it's a huge struggle to work effectively as a team. What happens when you try more complex tactics? They fall apart, sometimes with disastrous results. Players may not need to be fast physically, but they need to be fast mentally.

My 2 cents.

[marauder]

It's kind of funny and ridiculous at the same time, but it's not that easy to be an active member of the NIC, like it is to be an active member here. I have been following Nerfing sites since about the same time I've been following watergun websites. I have a few post on old forums, but I have only 1 post on NerfHaven in 3 years. It's so difficult because there are restrictions on what I can and can't reply to, since I only have 1 post, and the few topics I can reply to aren't pertinent to me, so I don't post rather than post something that would add absolutely nothing to the discussion and negatively effect my reputation. Furthermore, there's no events in my area. It's like this area of the world is a cultural black hole for most of the things I'm interested in. Driving to Atlanta for a Nerf event would be like driving from Conn or Upstate NY to Baltimore. It's doable, but I'd rather save the money for a plane ticket to visit family or go to a water war. It's simply amazing how parts of the country can be so different, but that's another discussion entirely.

I agree with DX about the rolling schedule. There's nothing wrong with things not going exactly according to plan. In fact, we should expect that. Having a schedule just makes it easier to get things going when people are standing around and unsure of what to do. Having a playlist would be fun sometimes, but I would definitely not want one the entire war, we would spend too much time talking about what to do next, and less time actually doing it.

What DX says about fighting together is also so true. I've been proud of the way that everyone has gotten better and how we've become better friends over time, but that's not the same thing as being able to fight together and knowing exactly what the other person is going to do. I'll give you some examples. In Vermin War 6 my squad was walking down a four wheeler trail, hunting down the enemy. I was at the point, with my friend Daniel (Viper) behind me. Two of our opponents were lying in ambush, about 66 feet ahead of us, one on either side of the trail hiding in the thickly foliaged ditches. We both saw them and without saying anything and without changing our pace Daniel casually moved up so he was directly beside me on the path so that he could cover one side while I covered the other, still looking directly ahead the entire time. After a few more paces we both brought our guns up at the same time and fired at the same time as they were springing up to prepare to fire. We eliminated them and they had no idea that we had seen them. And that was only the 6th, out of 12 wars.

What happened at MOAB was completely the opposite. When CA99 got hit I had no idea where he went off to. Granted, he probably made the right decision in just going back - just not in hanging out at that corner . When we were in the AP only round I had no idea if Drench was covering the rear or not. Then when the fighting began we had a miscommunication where Drench thought I said "RUSH" and attacked like 3 people only to get shot down. That was my fault as much as his, we just haven't gotten to that level yet, and that's not meant to discourage anyone.

[HBWW]

I've been in and out of NIC/Nerf in general because of this; because there is too little room for discussion. You can't get very far in a hobby just by lurking forums, and I also don't think that kind of mentality and thinking is helpful for our own community. I realize that Nerf and Airsoft tend to attract an influx of bad users and bad quality posts, but I dislike how that's dealt with on the NIC; in a way that also scrubs out people who'd potentially be serious into the hobby in the future.

Which MOAB game were you talking about? lol.

Anyway, I think we've made clear that community wars are just not at the level of those played by some groups/teams in the past. I don't think it's practical to even try to reach these levels of team skill and cohesion though; we have too many different players coming to our wars, who all play and fight in different styles and environments. I feel that woods warfare is a bit too overdone. Sitting in ambush or hunting aimlessly for 45 minutes is not the only way to organize or play out longer rounds. And personally, I don't spend hundreds on a plane ticket just to take a few nature walks. =p Point is, woods are fun, but they're not the only way to play.

[SEAL]

I wasn't really planning to make an account on Nerf Haven anytime soon; Nerf is fun every once in a while, but I'm definitely not into it enough for it to be a major hobby. Besides, I'm busy enough repairing water guns; forget about Nerf guns which seem to break down even more often. I know exactly what M4 means; I've been on forums that you just have trouble being active on because you don't have much to contribute. I'm sure if I made an account on Nerf Haven the same thing would happen.

What I meant by playlist is that we plan out each individual round as usual, but instead of setting each round at a precise designated time, we would just play them whenever we can. Basically it's the same thing you suggested, but with a different name. As for wars themselves, I already mentioned that I probably won't be doing Downpour any longer, but I will definitely help out as much as possible with any big central wars we might have. I agree that DC seems to be a very good location; maybe we should focus most of our energy there next year.

DX, if you want to get together sometime within the next few weeks (before I go back to school) I'd be up for it. My brother "chief" went away on vacation leaving me here with nothing to do. If there are any Nerf wars, I'm game for those as well.

I think most of us who want long rounds are willing to put up with everything that comes with them. I am extremely patient (once when I was younger and was playing tag at night with my cousins, I lay hiding in one spot in the woods for a whole hour because I didn't want to run, haha) so I don't have a problem at all with stalking or hiding for extended periods of time. However it doesn't seem like everybody is enthusiastic about doing the rounds in the first place. The problem with long, hardcore rounds is that we not only need more people, we need more people who are actually willing to fight that way and enjoy doing it. Even if everybody who I invited to Downpour showed up to a 24-hour war, I'm guessing there'd be maybe 3 or 4 (out of 25 or whatever it was) who'd fight in it.

I also want to have urban wars, but not like we've done in the past. If only there was some kind of large building(s) that we could fight inside and around. LBW was great, but a little small, and we couldn't go inside the school at Soakemore. I think a long round in some kind of large complex (with a mix of forest areas too) where we could go anywhere we wanted to in the buildings would be really, REALLY awesome. On that note however, there is a high school near me which has much larger grounds than the one at Soakemore, and is surrounded by woods with trails all over the place. Of course, we still wouldn't be able to fight in the buildings themselves, but I would like to try fighting there at night, even if it's no more than 3vs3. We should put something together sometime.

[the oncoming storm]

Indoor Urban wars would likely have to take place at a paintball or airsoft arena and result in strange looks from the staff.

[HBWW]

I want to try some week-long community events. Doesn't even have to be a week of straight up ww, could also mix in build/repair parties, scouting, etc. Unfortunately, it seems that no one has the scheduling flexibility for it.

[marauder]

There's a really cool abandoned soap factory in Brockport NY. Part of the building burned down. There's multiple levels. The first level is basically your typical warehouse. You can even climb on the roofs, it's kind of like they were made to be climbed one. Here's a pic I took:


Going to see if maybe I have some others, of the inside of the building.