Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

[HBWW]

That works. Here's some ideas:
- Time limit: One or two hours? (Battlefield games typically last about that long, so we may need a little more time than that.)
- Spawn only at captured control points. (15-30 seconds)
- Stop control point capture if all of your teammates near a control point are hit.
- Game ends immediately if one team captures all control points and eliminates the opposing team.
- Points for owning control points are awarded only at the end of the game.

Some problems include tracking kills over such a lengthy game. Perhaps the time limit needs to be cranked down.

We can also play a variation of this; the Assault variation where one team has one permanent spawn point (where the opposing team is not allowed to access) and has to capture a number of enemy control points within a time limit. Game plays for 30 mins to an hour or so. Control points that are captured cannot be retaken by the defending team. Swap sides when done. Control point hourglasses can be replaced with objectives such as the Attack Target or Container Target (i.e. The objectives used in Soakn' Destroy where you shoot a paper target to shreds or fill up a designated container with water.)


Invasion/Rush (or what I call "Breakthrough" on HBWW) would actually be simpler than symmetrical Conquest, but does require multiple phases. We can setup something real interesting though. Each phase can be limited via time, # of attackers' lives, or amount of water attackers have. Will edit some more details in here later.

Edit: Basically, Breakthrough works by having the two teams play attacker/defender roles and then swapping, measuring how many phases each team can complete when they're on the attacking side. Attackers must complete an objective or set of objectives to win a phase and move onto the next one, causing the defending team to have to retreat. We could even setup stories/scenarios to make this more interesting. I will leave it up to Scott to setup the objectives since he knows the area. A template we could follow is this:

3 phases
Phase 1: Two attack targets, score one to advance
Phase 2: Shift spawn points (defenders retreat), two container targets, both must be filled to advance.
Phase 3: Spawns stay the same. Attackers play 1 flag ctf around a well defended position and must deliver flag to special point.

Spawn times as mentioned. (15-30 seconds.) Mobile spawn points may be created, or we can allow standard 1HS spawn rules. Worse case scenario, attackers may spawn at their first phase spawn point.

[SEAL]

Gad, that sounds too complicated for my lazy-ass brain to try wrapping around. I feel dead now; need something to do! Thank goodness for this war.

I think we should make sure that the games aren't too complex, especially considering that we'll have a few guests and new players. If I remember right, Bela forgot that the defenders in HTL only have 3 lives (at least, in the version we were playing at Downpour '12), and kept playing. And that was just a simple HTL game. Forget about all this Conquest/Breakthrough stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to try out an objective-based game or two (that isn't CTF), but I think we should take into consideration all the new players and not make the games overly complex. That's just what I think.

But yeah, I'm not very good at coming up with games unless I can actually walk around the battlefield and figure out what will work and what won't in different areas. Scott mentioned something about a scouting trip to the battlefield on Friday night; maybe we could figure some things out then if Scott hasn't done it by then.

Oh, and I asked Belisaurius about this, but apparently he'll be up near where I live on Memorial Day weekend. So we're basically switching places, haha.

[DX]

I would also like to keep games simple, as I sold my short term memory to the devil in exchange for a powerful long term one. I could tell you every town that I've been to, where every possession I own came from, or every place I've ever spent money at, but not your name if I just met you a minute ago. So, forgetting complex rules is not just a newbie problem.

Games like Conquest can be played in simpler form. There's a similar game called Outpost that is played in Nerf. There's a set number of bases and you try to take them all. You can only spawn at a base you control, and there's usually some way of "taking" control, such as putting your team's color flag up and taking the other team's color down. Only the number of bases you control determines who wins the round. If hits are tracked, ideally each base has a book, so a death is recorded upon spawning and a player never needs to remember more than one at a time. Also, the gametype works best without a set respawn time, just the time it takes to find a base you control and write who hit you. This makes it more difficult to take a team's last base, as they need not travel far to respawn. This makes final base fights pretty epic and does not disadvantage the attacker, who will still win on base count even if they fail to take a team's last base.

[HBWW]

Conquest: Get rid of the 1HS and elimination when all control points are captured and boom, it's simple. In fact, we could even opt to get rid of the "neutral" states of control points, have them like in every other game except Battlefield. Up to you guys if you want to do that.

Asymmetrical Conquest (Listed as Onslaught on HBWW): Same as before, except this game is already simpler because one team cannot re-capture control points. (Meaning control points can be substituted for simpler objects such as the Container Target.) It doesn't get any simpler than attackers having to fill up a few containers spread across the field in a time limit. (Places where they can spawn too, if captured.)

Invasion: The only complication here are the three phases. If it's really that bad, then we can "phase" it out and just not play this game. You do have to remember the changing objective locations and spawn points, but that'd be the worst of it. If we had a good setup of this game at a field everyone knew, and played this game regularly, no one would have any issues remembering the rules. However, we can't get there if no one is willing to put any effort whatsoever into trying it out. Perhaps we can try it after conquest though, as it's really just a more complicated version of objective-based assault games.

So that leaves us with Conquest/Outpost and Onslaught. After removing 1HS and other kill-based rules (and even removing the "neutral" state of each base/objective), and leaving it with just control points and a time limit (teams being scored on # of control points they own at the end of a round), it doesn't really get any simpler than that. The only way to further simplify these games is to reduce the number of objectives placed throughout the battlefield (and remove provisions for spawning at said objectives, but that's just getting stupid now), but honestly, I don't see how it's difficult to remember that each objective functions the same, and to remember where they're located after we agree on where they should go.

Now, since we have non-community members here, I understand the need to keep the rules stripped down, but it's not like Scott can't setup and explain the rules to them ahead of time.

So, all rants out of the way, Outpost actually could work. I think that we should have short spawn times if we don't count hits nor have books at each base (which, lets be honest, won't work if it rains), otherwise, the time to write down the hit should suffice. Once written down or counted, the player can clear in anywhere near the outpost (lets say within 50ft or something, anywhere they are still in range to shoot the outpost) to reduce camping. Fixed spawn points are very prone to camping, and it was a real problem I've had in an airsoft game I've played a while ago. Perhaps with the low range of water warfare, it's less of a concern as long as people don't actively spawn within kill range, which for water blasters is very small anyway.

[SEAL]

Well, I figured I'd throw out some concerns anyway. Remember that Bela at Downpour last year forgot the rules for a simple HTL game.

Outpost actually almost sounds like the same thing that I'm planning to do for Downpour, except I was going to call it Domination. It also sounds like pretty much the same thing as Conquest. Personally, I don't think it's that complicated (I was half asleep when I wrote the other post), but I don't know about anyone else. I think Scott should decide what to do.

I need to start getting prepared for this. It's a little over a week away! Can't wait to get back out on the field.

[HBWW]

Conquest, Territories, and Domination are the most common names for it. You're right though, lots of people will be here who may not be keen on any rules more than the most basic.

With only a week left, I'm still not 100% sure on my attendance status. Best case scenario, I come and bring a friend. Worst case is still not coming at all. The latter seems very unlikely at this point, but heck, sh*t happens.

[scottthewaterwarrior]

The way I have it planned out, Conquest should be pretty simple. I think some have been thinking it is more complex then it is.

Essentially, each base/spawn point has a timer and notepad (to write down hits). Each team starts with one base while the rest are "neutral." This will be the only time bases will be neutral. When the game starts, players must go and capture bases by turning the timer so that their team's color is on top. When the sand runs out (one minute) the base is captured. Spawn time would just be the time it takes to write your name down in the kill book. You can only spawn at bases that you control and can't spawn at a base that is being captured (the sand is still flowing).
Unless someone manages to capture all the bases and wipe out the enemy team, the winner would be determined by who ever has the most points. (kills worth 1 point, bases worth 10).
I do agree the game is a little more complicated then a standard OHS game, but not as bad as people are making it sound. So long as people understand that when they are shot the must go back to their base, I think it will work out.

I plan on having Saturday be the more low key day and Sunday be the more extreme stuff (opposite of most community wars). This way, we can get a good idea of who can handle more hardcore battles before we actually have to play them. Every one I am inviting should do OK Saturday since it will be only a little more extreme then my local wars, but since none of them other the Bela has come to a community war, I don't know how well they would handle the more hardcore stuff like running through miles of woods. The other nice thing about the island though, is that even on the off chance that someone has trouble with the less intense stuff, there is still a lot of other stuff to do if they needed to sit a round out.

[HBWW]

Do remember that when capturing a base owned by the opponent, the base goes to neutral first before going to the team capturing. This is so that if you get a base partially, none of your work is thrown away, although for the purposes of water warfare it may be too much of a feature to ask for.

Anyway, the variety in this war should definitely keep things very interesting. It's the main reason why I'm prioritizing it over other community wars this summer. Lots of unconventional stuff: objective games, naval wars, beach landings, etc. getting thrown into the 1HS-in-the-woods mix. I really like that.

Scott, are you adventurous enough to setup a large-scale conquest beach-landing game? I miss that BF1942 experience, gotta play it again sometime.

[DX]

The only problem I see with an hourglass capture system is that the hourglass can be knocked over by blasts of water, whether accidentally or purposefully. I know that if I were trying to take a contested base, I'd simply shoot the hourglass down so the enemy couldn't complete their takeover. In Nerf wars with Outpost, that's why flags are used and you simply put your team's color flag up. It's a foolproof system. Each base has a flag for both teams. They are generally only neutral at the beginning, so during the war, you're always taking a base from the other team.

[SEAL]

Do you guys think it'd be better if each team had different colored flags to mark the bases with? When a base is captured, the capturing team puts up their flag and takes down the enemy one. Don't know why you'd need to have a timer. To me it's kind of like having a timer in CTF to determine whether or not the flag is captured. Granted, capturing a flag in CTF is probably a heck of a lot more difficult than switching flags in one spot, but still, I can't see any reason to use a timer. I would think that it'd result in a lot fewer base captures. Of course, I've never played this game before, so I'm just trying to visualize what it'll be like. I definitely want to try it out though; it sounds like a lot of fun. Edit: DX beat me to it. I didn't even think of someone being able to shoot down the hourglass.

Looked at the weather forecast and it says 0% chance of precipitation all weekend! I know it's a bit too early to be that accurate, but still, I can't believe it. Maybe we'll actually have a nice-weather war; haven't seen one since Hydropocalypse a year ago.

[HBWW]

The hourglasses are there so that teams have to actually hold a position for some time, giving the opposition time and opportunity to attack. However, since this may not quite work out (traditionally, you can spawn at an outpost even if it's being captured), we'll probably be better off adopting a different ruleset anyways.

[scottthewaterwarrior]

(This was supposed to get posted 4 hours ago before but I forgot.)

Part of the hourglass idea is so that your team can't instantly begin spawning after they have drawn off the enemies. They'd have to wait until the timer ran out. Shooting down the timer I think would actually add to the combat, if the timer gets knocked over, then nether team can spawn until it is set back up and the sand has fallen one way or another. We can use flags if people want, but I was basing this on SW Battlefront a bit and timers were the closest thing I could think of.

We could do a D-day conquest, although I think it would work better being a destroy type game. The defenders would have unlimited lives but if their spawn points got destroyed, then they lost. I was thinking of just doing the beach landing with standard HLT rules, but we can do it that way if people want.

[HBWW]

So, who's all geared up for war? I got some stuff ready for the naval wars. =p

As for the D-day game, that's pretty much the asymmetrical conquest game I listed earlier, but with the addition that attackers may spawn at the objectives they capture/destroy. However, we need to consider this: Respawning for boats is going to be a real pain. Attackers landing on the beach who are hit would have to go back into their boats and head out again. Here's an idea on how to manage this:

- Everyone has infinite lives except where otherwise noted.
- Spawn time is at least 1 minute.
- Players may spawn at objectives they own, or they may spawn by teammates via 1HS rules.
- Defenders start anywhere they wish within bounds, attackers start in the boats and make approach to landing.
- Attackers must capture an objective to continue. If they cannot do this before their team is eliminated, they loose. (They may not respawn until an objective is taken.)
- Attackers win when all objectives are captured, or loose if time runs out before that. (Timer starts when game starts, not when they capture an objective.)

Does anyone think this is too complicated? Unbalanced? If so, what's the alternative? Perhaps instead of elimination, attackers could be allowed to spawn at any boat that their team has landed, and if hit while still on the boat or in the water, they may not respawn until the boat lands. Players who are hit may not contribute to boat movement nor attack, but are allowed to help with WBLs. If a whole boat is eliminated, they must wait the spawn duration before moving again.

Perhaps some of this just needs rephrasing to sound less complicated than it really is.

[scottthewaterwarrior]

My idea for respowning was that if the attackers got hit, they had to get back into the boat and paddle out again. If an attack team managed to drag their boat all the way out of the water (they aren't real heavy, but someone would have to cover the person while the pulled the boat out), then it would become a spawn point for the attackers but only the ones that arrived in that boat. This way it would require others to still land their boats and give incentive for attackers already on shore to help them. You could only re spawn from the boat you came from but the defenders can't push it back into the water once you drag it out.
We could then have a few more objectives (such as flags that had to be captured or objects to destroy) until the attackers reached the final stronghold, the tree house! Like I said, I the thing is pretty invincible, but this is probably the best excuse to use it for a battle.

Update on local attendees. Mark will no longer be able to make it as he will probably be out of town. Even if he isn't, his mom is paranoid about the fact that he would be riding in a car with someone other then an adult and that my parent might not be their the whole time. (Her definition of an adult appears to be something like over 40.) My friend Luke (who normally hasn't like my b-day battles) is now coming. The reason he hasn't liked my local wars is because they were too laid back for him. We should have anywhere between 10-12 for this thing, though maybe a little less Sunday as some might aren't sure if they can handle really hard core stuff (Fri/Sat will be moderately hard core)

[marauder]

If this war is going to be a little more chill than ones in the past I request that you please please please take lots of photos for those of us not attending.

[HBWW]

The rationale behind allowing attackers to spawn from any boat is to make it more difficult to spawn-attack, a problem with constraining spawn points to small physical areas. In addition, players on boats who are hit can't simply swim their way to shore to spawn at a boat that's already landed, they have to wait for their boat to land, or if their whole boat is hit, they have to wait until the spawn time runs out before they can move or shoot again. (If, say, just one person out of three on a canoe is hit, that one person is not allowed to paddle nor shoot anything, but can still reload

Tree house sounds exciting. We can put its invincibility to the test with an assault/defend/HTL sort of game and a lot of WBL's. =p If all goes well, I'll be bringing one as well as DX, otherwise he may be the only one with a launcher.

[DX]

The treehouse is not the place for launchers or balloons. After really analyzing the pictures, I have identified a potential weakness. It can be countered, so I will hold that info for that round.

[SEAL]

I've been fixing up some guns; I'm probably going to go with a different loadout this time. I will try to take as many pictures as possible, and I'll bring my little flexible tripod thing (that I used at LBW) so some of the rounds can be filmed. I want to get a Go Pro but I just don't have any extra money at the moment. At least CA99 has one.

The D-day naval round sounds pretty awesome with additional objectives. I say, do HTL at first (when attacking the shore), then when all defenders are eliminated, it could shift to a Soak 'n' Destroy type game where the attackers have to "blow up" something. The defenders would all get back in the game, this time with infinite lives. The attackers' spawn point would shift to the shore. Once (or if) the target is "blown up", the defenders would have to retreat to the tree house or something, where they'd make their final stand (maybe it could turn to OHK for both sides?). Unfortunately that might be a little too complex for some people, but I basically see it as three different games without a pause in between. Of course, we would have to do it twice so both teams could have their turn at attacking and defending.

As for respawning on the boats, Scott's plan sounds pretty good. I also like CA99's idea of individual player hits (assuming that there are two people per boat); if both players on the boat are eliminated, they have to paddle out maybe a hundred feet or so before respawning, whereas if one person gets hit, he/she cannot assist the other person in any way until they either land or respawn (if the other person gets hit). I don't think respawn times for boats need to be that long, because it'll take long enough to paddle out and back. Then once the attackers get the canoes on shore, they can respawn at them without having to drag the stupid thing back into the water and paddle all the way out into the river.

Ugh, I hope this isn't too complicated for the new people because it sounds like it could be a lot of fun. If we are to do this, we have to make absolutely sure that everybody is 101% sure on the rules. Scott, you should go over it with your friends beforehand. As for launchers, I'll bring mine, but I lost my shells at MOAB! Anybody hungry for Pringles?

[HBWW]

If we saved those cans at MOAB, we'd be fine. I'll bring some over.

Alternatively, you can get a pair of scissors, go to McDonald's, and ask for a lot of cups of water. They seal better but tend to have issues with getting stuck on the balloon.

[the oncoming storm]

I would like to come to a war sometime next year, I have a problems that my fellow combatants start soaking instead of objective based playing, get bored of playing quickly, and can barely use my blasters let alone Heavy Cannon's like the 2500/2000's