Who cares about wars?

[DX]

I feel it is ok to use past tense for 2006, as the general season is over for all but the most hardcore and those with constant climates.

Q: Who cares about wars?
A: No one!

2006 was overall yet another miserable year for organized water wars, and not just the upper stages and calibers. Discussion of all water wars in general faded so completely that one wars topic a week seems like a lot. 2006 started out with the potential for a rebound in organized wars and a revival in teams and tactics. At the height of the season, regular battle reports were flowing in and the mega-concept of Tactical Theory came together. Some new teams were also added to the map.

However, by September, water wars were back in full retreat [in a community supposedly about water wars]. The number of active team sites finally fell to absolutely nothing and team forums held on by a single forum, which is close to being taken down. Having team sites cease to exist is like waking up one morning to discover that the Dow Jones Industrial Average is nothing. M4 totally vanished, bringing with him the most hardcore team in the US. I can now pretty much count the remaining members devoted to wars first on one hand...In fact, they don't even take up a whole hand. Few remain and the more pressing matter is that few seem to care about the state of wars.

2006 was about new homemades, most notably in the piston and water cannon categories. 2006 was about modding the new guns, complaining about the new guns, and repairing the new guns. 2006 was about a new central forum. 2006 was about new pictures, new reviews, and new modding/repair guides. Nothing's missing. Oh yeah, there is something you can actually do with those above guns, but I can't recall what, can you? It's been so long, my memory is a bit hazy? What? Fight with water guns? That went out of fashion in like 2004, get with the times! Who actually like fights with water guns, and actually posts online about it at that!? Now back to what's important...I can't believe that the re-released Flash Flood has such a large nozzle, they roxxerize teh big 1one1one1one1one1one1

Outlook for 2007: Potential for revival, but probably not. Team sites are [temporarily] extinct for the first time in soaking history. When I lose the Ridgewood Militia this summer, hardcore war will be [temporarily] extinct for the first time since 1999? You can only splash so much water on a candle before it goes out. Mods and homemades will make great advances in 2007. New soakers will be released in 2007. As for water wars...what? Fight with water guns? That went out of fashion in like 2004, get with the times! Who actually like fights with water guns, and actually posts online about it at that!? Now back to what's important...I can't believe that the re-released, re-released Flash Flood has such a large nozzle, they roxxerize teh big 1one1one1one1one1one1

Now if people actually cared about fighting organized water wars, I might not be so sarcastic and pessimistic. Well, show me where an optimistic attitude is supposed to come from. What's there to be optimistic about? Tactical Theory? Maybe in like 2 years. Local wars? Yeah, I'm losing my team next year and don't need to be reminded again. New teams? They can be optimistic. New stock soakers to draw more interest? More interest in talking about them you mean. New tech to draw more interest? Tech leads to more tech, not more wars. Support from the community? You're joking right? Bush supports socialism more than the water war community supports water wars.

However, since I am one of those action-rather-than-complaint people, I'll continue to fight a losing battle to revive wars. I'd love a good surprise in the trends. Will it happen? Well, since tech and guns are so much more important, most likely not. Then why is it worth it? Well, the last fragments of fighting water wars are better than no water wars.

Um...like any help?

[forestfighter7]

I would like to say that I have always put tactics above tech, stock soakers and others. I have been a supporter of fighting since I joined and my cities teams have increased by 100%. I would love to help revive wars. I don't see a reason to mod, build, or talk-unless people will fight.



Edited By forestfighter7 on 1163734268

[WaterWolf]

I for one have been trying to have as many water-fights as I could get organized.
My dad has an unfortunate rule of "only one meeting per month", but he's been loosening up somewhat, so I hope to be able to have them more often next year.
I understand your feelings that the actual "war" part of things is dying away, but I'm not going to let it go without a fight.
This last year was the first time that I've started having real water fights with more than four people and I do not want to find out that I started just in time to lose it.
Next spring I'm going to be cranking out posters, holding skirmishes at public gatherings and trying to get as many people active as possible. I'm even hoping to start a second team and once its steady on its feet, to let it develop itself into a force of their own.

Your thinking "Yes yes, this is all great and grand, but I doubt he will actually do half this stuff." Well I'm going to give it my best shot.
And hay, I did get the Maple-Mountain-Marines up and fighting within months of starting it.

[isoaker]

Though there has been a definite lack of water warfare discussion, I'm opting not to take a pessimistic or dissenting view, rather taking it as a challenge to rebuild what has been put aside.

Though iSoaker.com will still put a good deal of focus into stock soaker reviews, I do wish to do much more soaker use promotion and have more water warfare discussions, but all in due time. Being the start of 'off-season' to many, trying to get members thinking water warfare tactics when many can't go out and soak would be cruel in a sense. That doesn't mean that some theory and fictional scenarios can't be discussed. It's just that currently with school and work obligations, I'm already happy to still see members still posting on soaker-related topics in general.

I, personally, think that members here all are interested in water warfare; it's just that there haven't been the right type of threads to get members talking more water war discussions. However, all is far from lost and recognizing the lack of content on water warfare may help get new threads started. For me, though, I prefer promoting discussions using a positive spin as opposed to starting off with a negative tone. When there is lack of threads, just need members to start making threads on topics they are interested in.

[HBWW]

I haven't been around long enough to witness all of this decline. While I am unable to go hardcore, I have much bigger plans for the next summer than for the previous, my printer will be spitting out flyers rather than me calling people over a bit too late. For discussions, the only reason I've been discussing guns more than wars and fighting them is simply because I have been unable to fight due to the weather, everyone being busy, etc. and few people who come to my wars want to do teams anymore.

Either way, there isn't much I can do, I'm probably never even going to have a formal team, and if I did there'd be no one else to fight.



Edited By C-A_99 on 1163795995

[WaterWolf]

@ C-A_99:
Posters are good, but talking to people, showing them your armory and even letting them try out a few then and there is what I've found to be the best way to gain followers.

When I showed people the posters, it was all "Ho-hum, ya, I might be interested" But then I pulled out a few guns and they were like "WOW! HOLY-COW! Can I hold it? Can I shoot it?
After that, if there is more than one other person there, things will rapidly generate into a small-scale Soak-Fest, after which they'll be clamoring for more.

[HBWW]

Eh, well I'm not going to bring my soakers to school (I'd get in some trouble if I did), and I don't think sitting on my porch or on a street carrying a loaded 2500 yelling to everyone would work. Posters? I think I'd be better off making quick pieces of paper since they can be distrubuted to everyone. A lot of people I'm planning to invite have old soakers thrown around that they don't know where they are. (old soakers as in 2500's, someone even has a 2000 mk1, and dispite how long it's been, they still have just a rough idea of how long the pressure gauge is. Unfortuantely, it seems like many were either thrown away due to problems or given away due to lack of use.)

[SSCBen]

I care about wars, but...

I personally think that it is quite mistaken to believe that water fights are in a decline. Water fights were in a steady decline since the late 1990s to a few years ago, when they stayed low. The only correlation I can see is the lack of good water guns available to the general public. This keeps water fights out of the public's eye.

Of course, my personal answer is to make my own water guns, which has met with more success than some people will admit. Water gun technology does not only create more technology. It creates more wars, especially if you promote a war with one. I consider the effect my homemade water guns have on people to be the same effect the older Super Soakers did back in the 90s -- the awe effect. I don't know how many times Duxburian has tried promoting a water fight with homemade water guns, but I have and it was what helped organize all of the battles I had in 2004 and 2005. 2006 was a busier year for me and I haven't had a single battle yet, but that's fine with me. It's not like I'm just going to stop completely afterall.

Another thing worth mentioning would be the lack of success in the 2006 regional war. The lesson this time around would be to set a date and keep it. That and don't just put it in your hometown because it's convenient for you (this is mainly aimed at the Ridgewood guys). Make it convenient for everyone. Those two points I think should be emphasized more.

A good example of the "hometown" problem is something that is very dear to me: Maryland's track program. In track, the Baltimore schools are so poor that they can't afford school buses to meets. They rush each year to host the regional track meet that we attend (which makes no sense given where our school is located, but that's not the point here) at a school in Baltimore despite the fact that about many of the schools there aren't in Baltimore and many have to drive 2 - 3 hours to get there. What is too expensive for the Baltimore schools becomes way too expensive for us. If they put the meet at a school in the middle as opposed to one on the side, it would save a lot of driving time for many people. Then again, they just want the meet to be local so they won't have to pay as much money...

What I've found works for me (and this hasn't been talked about here because it's LOCAL and I don't really want outsiders coming) is working with local organizations. Next year we've got a great water fight day tentatively planned in my Boy Scout troop. I'm 18 now, an Eagle scout, and will soon be an Assistant Scoutmaster. I now hold a lot of weight in the planning of events for our troop. Our troop loves water activities. When I was younger, we had a water balloon catapult even that was incredible. The water fight wouldn't be anything short of that.

I also don't think that our current group will stop having wars once we go to college. On the contrary, I think we'll organize better and could meet on some weekends or during the summer. At least that's my hope.

Another thing I've been planning in my head for a while would be a Maryland-Virginia-Pennsylvania-West Virginia four-states region war. Those who know where I live know I live very close to all four of those states. Ohio isn't even too far off. At any fairly close state or national park I think organizing a water war would be a great thing to do, but this is still in my head at this point. It would be worth mentioning however.

And forget everything I've just said. Water guns might actually be getting more popular given what I'm about to mention. Take assassins and river rafting. Both have had a surge in recent popularity. Assassins games have the older audience we've been looking for and get press. River rafting has the audience we're looking for as well. Both have organized water fights all of the time. While it might not be the reader's specific idea of a water fight, it is someone's idea of a water fight. Both are fine with me.

(These two items are big things I want to address on my next SSC website update. At this point I think it would be silly for me not to mention that -- there is big potential in both. I might as well claim the idea before someone reads my post and thinks of it themself.)

So what I'm basically trying to say is that wars are not in a decline, rather, they haven't been the biggest thing around anyway. I'd also argue that things are getting better for us and will get better for us if some people got rid of the defeatist attitude that some people have.



Edited By Ben_ on 1163879693

[isoaker]

I definitely look forward to the updates planned for SSC. I'm interested in what aspects on river rafting and Assassins you'll be going into; for me, such things are related, but not quite the direction I have in mind for iSoaker.com developments.

That said, I understand aspects of both Ben's and Duxburian's statements. Duxburian, IMO, seems concerned about the loss of organized water warfare while Ben appears to be stating that water warfare hasn't been a major thing for a long while now. To me, both these statements are true without being mutually exclusive. I think that the forums could use more water warfare discussions, though. Tech/soakers have taken the spotlight and, while important, water warfare should be discussed more, too.

However, all that said, I have a good feeling about the future direction of the communities so I'm not too concerned just yet.

[SilentGuy]

I can't really remember a time when water warfare was too popular. Maybe, five years ago or so, we'd have ten people ages 8-12 or something--and maybe one or two big wars a year. It wasn't hardcore, but it was big and fun.

With the advent or at least the increasing popularity of many new hobbies, such as video gaming and paintball/airsoft, one can resist but one must also accept that spreading water warfare is a difficult challenge. Everybody on my street has aged quite a bit, and almost all of us are in high school--where soaking is considered an interest for little kids. Granted, new families have also started to move in with very young children/toddlers. But my friends are all into airsoft and gaming, and I am too.

I disagree with the statement that tech doesn't help. Maybe you guys can't use it very well in your very hardcore wars. But it's a great motivational factor in getting people interested. You must also realize that the members of Soakerdom do not comprise all the people interested in water wars. Quite contrary. We spend much more time theorizing and discussing water warfare than other people do.

Which does support Ben's claim that river gunning and assassin games have become more popular. How many people have we heard of at SSC who have been building homemades and river fighting long before joining Soakerdom? The spirit can still live on, even if it's a fanatical following in the new, gimmicky guns. Maybe nobody does hardcore wars, but what about "softcore" ones?

Anyway, I don't think people have entirely stopped caring about soaking. The last day of school for seniors at CHS remains...when people throw water balloons into the courtyard(s) from the roof during lunch and soak each other after school. While the audience for soaking isn't large, it's as large as it ever was.

[DX]

I personally think that it is quite mistaken to believe that water fights are in a decline. Water fights were in a steady decline since the late 1990s to a few years ago, when they stayed low. The only correlation I can see is the lack of good water guns available to the general public. This keeps water fights out of the public's eye.

I'm not talking about the general public. I'm talking about the online community.

Of course, my personal answer is to make my own water guns, which has met with more success than some people will admit. Water gun technology does not only create more technology. It creates more wars, especially if you promote a war with one. I consider the effect my homemade water guns have on people to be the same effect the older Super Soakers did back in the 90s -- the awe effect. I don't know how many times Duxburian has tried promoting a water fight with homemade water guns, but I have and it was what helped organize all of the battles I had in 2004 and 2005. 2006 was a busier year for me and I haven't had a single battle yet, but that's fine with me. It's not like I'm just going to stop completely afterall.

I disagree with the statement that tech doesn't help. Maybe you guys can't use it very well in your very hardcore wars. But it's a great motivational factor in getting people interested.

Ok, I didn't phrase this very well. We do quite a bit of promotion via tech here in Ridgewood. However, my point is that most who use tech are tech-first. Some new RM members are drawn by the Douchenator and modded guns. But, when they arrive on the battlefield, it becomes very clear that it's not just about tech and overwhelming firepower. Tech helps, but here, tech is a small part of a much, much larger equation. It's mainly an attitude thing, when tech becomes so important that everything else seems dispensable. You've all seen it, I even had it for quite some time. I was once the usual tech-first fighter, all the way up through the Progressive Level. You may have noticed my transition to wars-first, when words like "battle practicality" suddenly came out of nowhere-when battle practicality, not range, output, or capacity, became my yardstick for homemades and launchers.

Basically, if you had to choose which would remain and which would die, wars or tech, what would be your choice? I personally could survive without any tech at all, if it meant keeping organized warfare. Most rest on the other side of the fence, like Ben, with pretty damn spectacular tech advances in 2006, yet no wars in 2006. I'd have a difficult time doing that in all honesty.

Another thing worth mentioning would be the lack of success in the 2006 regional war. The lesson this time around would be to set a date and keep it. That and don't just put it in your hometown because it's convenient for you (this is mainly aimed at the Ridgewood guys). Make it convenient for everyone. Those two points I think should be emphasized more.

The problem with that is there is no host. Every major Nerf war has a host, whether it be a team or a single person. And they work, nearly every time. Plus, sticking a war in the middle makes it less convenient for everyone. Niagara 2005 was, IMO, doomed to fail from the very moment the town was picked. In the center for all, but still a great distance from all. It seemed convenient for both Americans and Canadians. However, it was still a bit far for most Canadians, and most Americans in the Northeast live on the seaboard, a good 10-20+ hours from Niagara. Ridgewood should have worked due to the central location on the Northeastern Seaboard. Less than 5 hours from Boston and about 5 from DC [only 2 from Albany, 2.5 from Phily, and 15 minutes from New York], with access to nearly every major highway that crosses the state. In fact, it is naturally positioned nearly perfectly for the major population centers of the Northeast, going along with the convenience issue. It failed mainly due to date conflicts.

I also don't think that our current group will stop having wars once we go to college. On the contrary, I think we'll organize better and could meet on some weekends or during the summer. At least that's my hope.

The RM will cease to exist when we split to colleges. There's no way to hold the team together when we'll be scattered across the country. Students flee Jersey en masse, and in all directions.

Water guns might actually be getting more popular given what I'm about to mention. Take assassins and river rafting.

That is true. Belisaurius and I are going to organize a water wars team assassination tournament in the Spring similar to Dart Wars for Nerf. However, I don't find these as fun. You're not there to prove intellectual superiority over a rival team, you're there to win the prize money. Assassins and rafting have wider appeal, but the quality of these fights is often a lot lower. Then again, it depends on what you personally value in a water fight. I value the teamwork, the creativity, the real-time strategy. The duel in the minds, the abstract communication between the teams. Ever been able to feel the enemy's presence, even though there's no way to know that they are there? "Reading" people in battle can even help you "read" people better in your social life. Basically, I see value in organized war that extends beyond the physical soaking of friends with a water gun. That's the component that no other form of water war has, and the component that I don't want to lose. A serious war in really advanced levels is like no other water war experience. There is no comparable substitute. Once lost, there is no point to Tactical Theory, or all but the most basic of tactics. You don't use abstract communication and action-reaction in a river rafting fight, or in a soakfest in someone's backyard.

The "spirit can live on", but in an impotent light. And I would want no part of a community which ltotally lacks the intense intellectual power that water wars are really capable of.

[mutuhaha]

Perhaps one way to keep the intellectual water fight tradition alive is to have it attached to a larger organization (especially school-based). What we do over here is have water fight as a facet of our company (read more in water warfare forums). This way, it survives well and long, having been going on strong for a few years now, each year having at least 4 successfully planned and executed wars.

As for the aging problem, a permanent larger organization helps as even though we age and go to college or university, we can still go back to our roots and find a thriving community still soaking. Take the volunteer officers in my company, they're our seniors returned alive from the real world to help out. Although the main focus of our BB company here is not water fights, it is a big enough part.

Everynow and then, some of us are inspired to take water games to another level, and come back to see it stay that way. Throw in a population our size and we've got a self sufficient community, complete with fighters, techies and tacticians.

A school based club would be a good place to start, with new recruits coming in every year and seniors taking time off to help once in a while. The older ones should help the younger ones along too.
Although the forecast looks bleak for the online community, next year is a promising year over here, with the advent of new systems and tactics. This is just a suggestion: try setting up permanent organizations in your neighbourhood, with new generations coming in each year. It may just save organized water warfare.



Edited By mutuhaha on 1164373592

[WaterWolf]

This is exactly what my team is doing, we have a variety of ages, so that as older ones drop out, younger people join and fill their places.

[SilentGuy]

While having a team that can continue without its founders would be ideal, it hasn't been proven to work except with hamster, simply because of the nature of that organization--which is great. We really can only hope that other groups will survive. M4's team basically vanished as he left; even the Ridgewood Militia and Waterbridge have dismals hopes for next year; and your team is probably too young to have convincing proof of continuation. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, as the Maple Mountain Marines are great; but this is all theory.

[Scavenger]

Well, I failed. My team never got off of the ground. Nobody's interested in it, and I still haven't found out (for sure) why they don't like it.

I'd love to be in a war, and I've got the skills to organize a team. I'm just not very good at convincing and persuading people to change their views.

[DX]

In order to have a team survive the leaving of its founder, it either has to be huge or have strong leaders in the younger ranks. My team has dropped back below 20 due to college losses and does not have enough underclassmen to survive. 15/19 of our members will leave for college in 2007. None of the 4 remaining have veteran experience. Likewise, 16/17 of Waterbridge is gone next year, and that 1 remaining does not have veteran experience.

Even if we are able to convince our underclassmen to keep it going, we'll lose virtually all our hard-fought progress. Both teams would lose caliber, tech, and slide back in the progression. All of our mods, homemades, and launchers are senior-owned, all of our tactics senior-made, and both teams are held together by seniors.

And then there's the matter of forming a new team. That won't be easy. Due to cars, there will be more possibilities, but still not a good situation.

@Scavenger: Try showing them stuff that means business. RM growth was greatly facilitated by large artillery and modded guns. If that doesn't work, ask them flat-out why they wouldn't be interested in water wars. It takes very little arguing skill at all to satisfy a demand that isn't currently being met. For example, if they say that water wars are too childish, raise your intended caliber and/or level.

[SilentGuy]

@Scavenger: Try showing them stuff that means business. RM growth was greatly facilitated by large artillery and modded guns. If that doesn't work, ask them flat-out why they wouldn't be interested in water wars. It takes very little arguing skill at all to satisfy a demand that isn't currently being met. For example, if they say that water wars are too childish, raise your intended caliber and/or level.

But there are still a few other problems. Time, for example: maybe not in the summer, but during school, a heavy workload could hurt. Plus one's parents might not "approve," although I'll admit that my parents might be fine with the idea.

Gee...I never really knew how much your teams comprise seniors. I'm willing to bet that the rest are juniors, too. I had been a little deluded...

[DX]

But there are still a few other problems. Time, for example: maybe not in the summer, but during school, a heavy workload could hurt. Plus one's parents might not "approve," although I'll admit that my parents might be fine with the idea.

Of course there are bound to be other variables. Time is usually not a problem on weekends, even with heavy workloads [many RM members have 4 or more AP classes and some Waterbridge members have IB classes [above AP]]. Parental approval becomes a moot issue as one ages, but I don't know everyone's age so that could be a problem for some of you. Modding and homemade building, however, tends to raise parental approval, as there's nothing childish about an intimidating PVC creation with serious power or making something that looks like a rocket launcher and fires water balloons over your neighbor's neighbor's house.

Gee...I never really knew how much your teams comprise seniors. I'm willing to bet that the rest are juniors, too. I had been a little deluded...

Both teams used to be 100% sophomores, then 100% juniors. :p This year was the only in which we [now seniors] reached out to a few of other classes. When one looks at the RM roster, they notice that it is mainly formed around my good friends. Same for Waterbridge with Belisaurius's friends. Naturally, the vast majority of our friends are in our grade. The teams have aged significantly, even though to us it doesn't seem so. After all, we've advanced through 5 stages and 3 calibers in the past 3 years, and did not know that until this year.