Well this was a waste...

General questions and discussions on water warfare regarding tactics and strategies.
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Evangel
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Well this was a waste...

Post by Evangel » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:01 pm

I swear I fricking hate how paranoid people get. We went to take on the ASS again at Boulan Park. Things could've gone PERFECT. There were other kids there with guns of their own, a whole playground full of them. And they wanted to engage us, could've been excellent, exactly what I've been looking for to gauge just how much I've progressed since that age. The only problem: a bunch of paranoid parents and macho losers getting literally in our faces, trash-talking us, and threatening us to leave the park, saying that we're scaring little kids with our water guns or that we're gonna soak some innocent kids. Kind of a ridiculous thing to get so paranoid over considering that HALF the kids on those playgrounds had water guns of their own. These guys were SERIOUSLY overreacting.

I'm starting to wonder why I even bother with these games if this is what's gonna happen every time we try to play around other people. A few weeks ago, I went up to Sports Park by myself to do some general weapon testing and solo training, and the cops came and made me leave the park! Two people called the cops on me just for CARRYING water guns! Perhaps my cause is lost? Am I just not meant to leave my mark on the next generation? =/

I'm planning for one final war between MTU members at my condo complex of Southridge. Virtually everyone in my neighborhood knows me by now, I shouldn't have anything to worry about if we fight there, but still...
Last edited by Evangel on Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by HBWW » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:43 pm

I was about to post about this, but got too busy w/ things after.

@ Evangel: Sorry for the horrible organization. Too many people that were invited didn't come, and I should've forseen the playground to be an issue as soon as I entered the park and saw how many people there were. I just wanted to continue and try it out since the only refill stations were nearby though...

Three options for the crappy situation. When we started the game, I got my squad up to a high position where no kids were on, then when we got b****ed at first, ("YOU'RE ALL AT LEAST 14, GET OFF!!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH") I ordered everyone out just because I didn't want to be an asshole... (funny how that works with our team name) In the same situation, one could try to explain the concept of water warfare games to them, but for those people, if they knew anything about water warfare, their little heads would explode. (though some people from MTU did talk to someone who was polite and not being retarded about it) Third, soak them. I wish I could, but it would screw up the situation too much to be worth it. Either way, we got funny looks the whole time, but it was worst when I was by myself, carrying my whole freaking armory back to my house.

How is it possible to promote water warfare in these types of places and communities, especially when people treat water guns as real weapons? The community has a long way to go towards promoting water warfare, and these games (that weren't set up very well) don't seem to help. The kids were were allegedly scaring wanted to join us pretty badly (and borrow our guns since their parents only bought them measly squirt guns barely modeled after Monster X's) and we wanted to let them in.

Evangel, you're not alone trying to get kids to turn into Flash Flood wielding ninjas, nor me trying to build a company of CPS riflemen. I'm sure just about everyone who's tried to get water gun fights going has had trouble dealing with idiotic sort of people.

We need some huge re-thinking to do... for a huge problem. I should've forseen this, and right now, I think we are all much more scared than those people were... Scared for the stupidity of our society and for our ability to promote and enjoy the sport. Seriously, the f***ing playground is public grounds, nobody has any right to tell us to get off.

Sorry to vent here, but its one of the few places I can put it. I should be more mature about it and keep looking for ways around, but its pretty much impossible to think and act rationally towards them when this just pissed me off for the day.

Edit: And this reminds me, I am just beginning to realize why the modern soaker market is missing so much.


Edit: I posted a full report as on facebook:

As I walk to the park, it turns out that theres a ton of people there, with tents set up and everything. My squad was just walking up and of course, 4 teens carrying all sorts of water guns can't be a good thing so we get some funny looks from some people nearby. Then we meet up, fill, discuss rules, etc. We came to the conclusion of doing 1 hit kill elimination across the 2 play structures. The play stucture area was the best because it was just in between the 2 refill stations. We are able to fill without too much trouble.

We start off and both of our teams move to a part of the playground where no kids were playing on and go up on higher areas. Some kids on the ground want to join so we make arrangements for them to do so. There was a ton of people and many of them on the playground had water guns of some kind. So we start off and I give orders to my team. Someone tries to move in and flank us but I managed to take him out using range and the height of the structure. I move back up to watch the rest of whats going on, then...

"YOU CANT BE UP HERE! ALL OF YOU ARE AT LEAST 14, GET OFF THE PLAYGROUND!!", bellows the voice of a mad mother. I order the team to move out and fight on ground but our game ends pretty abruptly and both of our teams are getting accused of:

1. Accidently shooting kids (which NEVER happens, if our teams were that bad at distinguishing targets, I wouldn't have organized the war, and half of them could've shot at us if they wanted to)

2. Scaring the kids off the playground. (funny how that works when those kids we supposedly scared off wanted to join) People of all sorts are getting in our faces, cussing, yelling at us to leave, etc.

I've had it pretty easy and didn't get much, but this: http://www.isoaker.net/isnet/topic3474.html not so much so. They weren't just overreacting, they were acting almost as if we were carrying actual weapons. The playground is open grounds and they have no right to kick us off especially when we weren't even doing ANYTHING to the kids other than trying to let them borrow a few soakers they'd need cuz their parents were too cheap to buy them anything more than measly 8" long squirt guns that hold just enough water for the average person to drink in one gulp.

As we're walking over, we go to a line of trees and vegetation where no one was around to give crap to us. Before we start, I see some police cars moving down. They completely ignored us the whole time we were around.

We played CTF (1 hit kill respawn @ flag) This is where the rest of the game takes place but refilling is a pain having to walk all the way back and back again. To make things worse, the back lacing of my sandal breaks, meaning I can't charge, charge-dodge, sprint, run, nor anything else so I go barefoot for a while which proves to be pretty painful. (and disgusting when having to refill in the restroom) We almost had the upper hand in the CTF game, then it was just called off for some odd reason later. People are getting tired and my band wanted to set up for recording later so everyone (on my team) but me leaves. I decided to stay, then Mike shows up and we, along with the other team, exchange some shots. This is the only time I ever get to be so l33t as to use a water bottle to soak. After this, Mike simply leaves, leaving me with my whole armory to take back. This verifies that the police ignored us because I walked right by a police car while carrying the load. Later, I walk by 2 people sitting in the grass and they stare at me as I walk into the neighboorhood.

The people tagged was our team, pretty much. Funny that only 4 show up when 29 were invited... But that's of little concern compared to the crap we got from the more numerous people that bickered at us.

Conclusion. Back at the last war, I learned that you can't start a meeting/party/water war by just sending out a bunch of emails, and now I learned that facebook doesn't work either. You have to get up and call each and every freaking one of them because half of them live in the stone age and don't check up on their stuff. (or maybe they do but don't have the courtesy to reply)

But more so, each and every one of us is much more scared (and pissed off) than all those people combined. Personally, I'm pissed at how paranoid and stupid people are. If all those who yelled at us and got in our faces tried to understand half of what we simply were there for, their heads would explode. As Inram Zahkaev (probably spelled that wrong) from Call of Duty 4 said, "They are the invaders!" They are the ones scaring the little kids! (and their stupidity, paranoia, and single-mindedness sure scared me...)

We gotta re-think this... If we play around the neighboorhood, our parents get mad about it. If we play in a park, other adults get red-headed about it... The selfish, overreacting, simple-minded crapheads...
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by zuloon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:40 pm

I hate parents like that. One time ,when I was about seven, I was waiting in line for the water fountain when a girl cut me (we called it "ditched" where I used to live). I was angry, I'd waited a while for a boy, who was apparently the sister's older brother, to finish. So I called out "Hey! You ditched me!". Suddenly I heard a stern voice from behind me: "What did you just say to my daughter?". It was her mom. Being seven years old sucks. I had no idea whether ditch was a bad word or not. So I kept quiet, and even felt guilty. Thanks for ruining part of my childhood, you cranky old lady. I bet you've said much, much worse than that, if it can even be considered bad, before. Well, I'm glad that I'm older now. Whenever I encounter those types of people, I just take a step forward, look them in the eye, and they shut up.

Next time you should explain it to the cops. They'll understand. If not, then something else is wrong with our government (besides what we already have). But, seriously, what is wrong with being over fourteen and on a playground? Maybe if you were thirty and wore a mask and all black and started taking pictures of the kids, then I could see the cause for concern. Next time the parents try to give you a hard time like that, do this:

Failure of a parent: "YOU'RE OVER FOURTEEN!BLAH BLAH BLAH!"
You: "Well, you're over fourteen. Why are you here?"
Failure of a parent: "Because of my kids."
You: "And why did you bring them here today?"
Failure of a parent: "So they could play."
You: "So why do you think I'm here?"

And if they just won't cooperate, tell the police they're harassing you.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Evangel » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:39 am

Well, good luck all of you. Hope you're all able to resolve all this one day.

Me, I'm done with this crap. If this is what's going to happen every time we try to pass a little something to the next generation, then I don't want any part of it. It's just too saddening to see how idiotic and simple-minded today's society is, and how devoted they are to keeping unique and interesting people like us in the closet. So I'm out.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by isoaker » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:06 am

'tis a sad and frustration situation, indeed.

From the other side, some parents are not as concerned about the water guns, per se, but more about older kids playing near their small kids. I can't quite say what the situation was like since I wasn't there, but I do understand that parents watching over a 7-year-old may be worried about 14+ year-olds running around where their child is playing. As far as I know, there is no age restriction on who can or cannot use a playground, but if there are small kids around (less than 13 years old), even if they wish to participate, I'd still avoid trying to get them to join in the game without their parents' consent. And, while frustrating, it's still better to find a place away from non-participants to hold a water war than to have to deal with crap like that. Thing is, if you soak someone who does not wish to be soaked, that is still technically an assault. While it is only water, I've seen far too many kids and adults alike freak out if hit by a stream. I really wonder how much they curse if they get caught in a rainstorm! I'd bet they'd sue Mother Nature if they could, too! :goofy:

Sadly, that is the current state of things. However, going up directly against these biased, misinformed people. Instead, need to develop things less in the public-view, per se, and use word-of-mouth as well as the net to spread the word. Exhibition-type games are possible, too, in controlled areas. Perhaps we could try looking at soaker combat along the lines of paintball; though we can have battles in more places, avoiding the public in general except in areas where people are more open to getting wet (i.e. the beach) would be advised. It is frustration, to say the least. However, I wouldn't wish anyone to give up due to these sorts of annoyances. If we are to pave the way for bigger, better battles in the future, we cannot give up just because the present seems frustrating.

Soak on!

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by HBWW » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:52 am

I've been trying to make that point to Evangel; to continue with wars dispite the... persecution lol, but on the other hand, I wasn't the one driving up an hour for a horribly organized war. Still, this is not the first war I've made mistakes with, I've seen the sport as a whole go through so many problems in the past 2 years. But none of that is enough... Water warfare is too much to be stopped by just a few players screwing around or by some angry parents, or by the 2003 regression of the Super Soaker, nothing should and nothing will stop us from playing and spreading this.
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by isoaker » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:17 pm

In another thought, the other thing that can be done to calm paranoid people down is to talk with them before starting a game to assure them that non-participants will not be targetted and that you guys are just there to have fun like everyone else. That won't work with all paranoid people, but it'll likely work for many.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Evangel » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:11 pm

Sorry, but I just can't take this fascist society anymore. After next weekend's war, I'm done with this for good.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Adrian » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:01 am

Don't let a bunch of idiots get you down. Expect the worst, that way you're never disappointed. Have an alternate location (or two) picked out. Show up early to talk to the parents and assure them that pookie won't catch a 10x beam or three. Stay away from other people. Seriously. Just concentrate on your team, and invite onlookers to join as you see fit, but hold this well away from anyone who's going to b**** at you for things you haven't done.

That said, if you must play around people, be very, very, very careful. Get clean shots, watch your backgrounds. Good grief, I have always wanted to say that. Anyhoo, make sure you don't shoot anyone, don't even get into a place and position where you could possibly shoot anyone. Once you pull the trigger you're responsible for that blast of water, wherever it goes. And I know you know that already, but pookie's absent-minded handlers don't know that you know that. All they know is their little critter is doing his Thomas The Tank impersonation somewhere on the playground while they're having a little gossip session, and god help you if he starts crying.

Offer supersoakers and towels to the kids who want to join in (only if their parents allow) and treat them with kid gloves. Make sure the parents know you're just there to have fun and cool off on a hot day.

None of this pertains of course if you show up to the playground wearing ghillie suits and saluting each other and trying to act like you're in the military. Some people have done that, still do, and think its a great idea. All it's going to do around the average Joe and Jane is make them think you're a poser and ridicule you.

Take it or leave it, my opinion's worth what you paid for it. Good luck.

Adrian
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Evangel » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:46 am

Sorry, but I've had enough of this. I spent my whole childhood running and hiding from assholes like these. It's people like those that I had to do water wars this long in the first place, the reason I'm still trying to have a happy childhood at age 21. Now they even took this away from me, I can barely even pick up a water gun anymore, just too much trauma.

It's all their fault I'm so miserable all the time, and I've had it. From now on, I'm carrying a switchblade or something at all times, so if ANYBODY EVER has the nerve to mess with me again, well... it'll probably be the last you'll hear from me anyway; at this point I really don't care if I live or die.

Whatever the case, if I'm gonna be condemned and exiled to closed-off areas like deep forests or whatnot, whether I'm carrying water guns or airsoft or even real guns, I might as well go with airsoft. To hell with water wars; it's just not worth the trouble.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Adrian » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:46 am

Nobody's talking about condemning or exiling anyone, just taking sensible precautions around ignoramuses, and possibly helping to change the face of water warfare. If I was a parent I know I'd rather see a bunch of young adults on the playground come up to me and say "Hey, we're going to be waterfighting here, we'll make sure to watch out for your kids, let us know if there's any other concerns we can address for you" than a bunch of people so decked out in uniforms and ghillie suits and whatnot that it's impossible to tell their age ignore me and then chase each other around the playground inches from my child. Or get to the playground earlier and set up before all the moms get their with their tots. There's nothing they can do that can't be accounted for.

If you're so seriously miserable that you're carrying a knife just looking for an altercation to escalate: GET HELP RFN! Colleges generally have councellors who can address mental health topics, join the military and get some direction, heck, call up a suicide hotline - their whole JOB is to talk to you. It's one thing to carry a knife for self-defense, but taking out your violent frustrations on idiots who mess with you verbally is NOT funny to joke about. I don't know you, I don't know your life story, maybe you really have had a horrible and abusive childhood, I just don't know. But if parents yelling at you for having a waterfight too close to their kids is causing you serious trauma and sapping your will to live then 1)You've had a really lucky lifetime and/or 2)You sound like you REALLY need that help I was talking about earlier.

I'm seriously considering editing that post.

Good luck. Stop, take a deep breath, look up into a beautiful sky so blue it can hurt your eyes. Watch a movie. Listen to some music. RELAX. And if you need help, please get it before doing something rash.

Adrian
“To achieve a World Government it is necessary to remove from their minds their individualism, their loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogma.”…..Brock Adams, Director, United Nations Health Organisation.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by HBWW » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:57 am

Evangel, wtf happened to our discussion in the chatroom yesterday... You even said you reconsidered quitting and then afterward, you said you didn't care about emptying the soakers and cleaning up uniforms...

I agree with Adrian on our setup. I was the one being lazy when organizing this and didn't want to take a few more steps away from the refill stations. The only time playground wars ever work so simply is when its early, late, or raining. As we're doing 1HK, and all the combatants are at least 5ft tall, I knew for certain that distinguishing targets would be a piece of cake, and since half the kids had their own water guns (and some wanted to join us), we didn't scare anyone.

I thought of another idea; for each player to carry some kind of official-looking(ish) information card that briefly explains the purpose of whats happening. This would be quicker than trying to explain our game to all those 50 moms around there, but having to show it while worrying about getting flanked or pausing the game isn't practical either.
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Silence » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:45 am

At a guess, I would just show up in swimming trunks and a shirt. While I admit your ninja costume looks cooler, it's not really necessary and it's probably the biggest turnoff for parents. In a sense, doing that would be submitting to others' stereotypes, but it seems like dropping the costume is the only way. You can have just as much fun in casual clothes as in your ninja costume.

I may be wrong, of course. But to me (and perhaps to others), the costume seems irrelevant to water war.

At any rate, don't give up or freak out about this. Instead of taking a slippery slope and trying to justify the consequences of escalating the conflict, see what else you can do to avoid this problem. As you've mentioned, airsofters have found ways to do what they do without arousing suspicion. Get an airsoft gun and go to the nearest airsoft location, or look for local airsofters who have found a private neck of the woods to play in. Honestly, water warfare isn't about extra gear and costumes. There's nothing wrong with dressing up, but if you want to get hardcore, find a hobby that is more conducive to it.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Evangel » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:52 am

@Adrian: For the record, it's not the mom's. It was that gang of teenage punks and thugs getting up in my face and cussing at me that pisses me off. Macho pricks thinking they're the good guys when they're no different than the losers who delighted in ruining my life since I was born. I seriously should've punched that ****** in the face like Sparrow wanted to do. It may have ruined our game, but know what? After that I didn't actually feel like playing anymore anyway.

@Silence: They'd be on my ass whether I wore it or not. Let's not forget two people called the police on me a few weeks ago just for HAVING a water gun. I wasn't dressed up at all. And airsofters avoid suspicious by fighting only in secluded areas or special arenas. Water wars are supposed to be something you can do anywhere at any time, but I suppose not. Also, I refrained from airsoft or any other hardcore hobby because I figured I'd only be as bad at that as I am at any other hobby, other than this. But seeing our development in water wars, I shouldn't have much of a problem in airsoft. Hell if I'm able to dodge a MXL at point-blank, with a bit more training I could probably even learn to dodge BBs.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Adrian » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:53 pm

Ok, so you're dealing with punks. Unless they're actively threatening you and you feel your life is in danger, you have no reason to grease anybody. So give that switchblade to a family member, go find a councellor(sp?) and get some help on the anger issues.

As for dealing with them, unless they're getting violent, ignore them. If waterguns are sold in your area, and I suspect that they are, the cops CANNOT interfere in an nonviolent, non-contact sport being played with legal equipment purchased from the S-mart 2 blocks away. It sounds like you're wearing ninja suits and all sorts of costumes to these wars...it sucks, but if you stop they might just leave you alone. You shouldn't have to, and that is your choice. Just say' going around waterfighting dressed for World War 3:Pirates vs Ninjas vs Vampires vs Chuck Norris is a fantastic way to draw attention to yourself.

It sucks, I know, having to put up with crap from people. I caught it for years for having hair halfway down my back. Just tune them out, deal with them when there's no other way around them, and enjoy yourself.

Look at it this way, if you give up, they win. You sound p***ed enough that probably rankles a little bit. Good luck.

Adrian
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by DX » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:56 pm

Water warfare is meant to be an escape from RL problems, not a source of more pain. You really should rethink things if you'd seriously knife someone, verbal abuse or not. This kind of negative energy is bad for the soul. Nothing good can come of it, especially at high levels that have built up over time. I personally know the immense power that negative energy is capable of dishing out, but it's not healthy and I don't like using it.

I took quite a bit of verbal abuse all the way up to mid-way through high school. 55% of int'l adoptees commit suicide, but I decided early on to buck that trend, take the hand life dealt me and beat the house with it. The key is to rise above the abuse. I've backed down from fights and don't give a crap about the resulting taunting - the person will still be on the streets when I'm going somewhere in life. It takes discipline and class to just ignore the best insults one can think up, but it works if you really will it to work. You have to be 110% focused and determined that ignoring it will block it out, just a tiny bit of doubt erases all progress. "This guy will NOT get under my skin, no matter what he does. He simply can't because that option has been blocked forever". Also, if you give up a hobby just because of some assholes, they win. Deny terrorists the fear, deny murderers the attention, deny bullies your reactions. It's a game against the game of life, life is always playing you, it wants you to give up. When life pushes you, push it back harder. Fight back with your mind, not your knife.

Now as for future wars,

- Choose a playing area that isn't full of people if they've been a problem. Playgrounds and neighborhoods aren't the only fun places. If it must be a place with people, control for the type of people. North Jersey was seemingly a hostile place to have water wars, but we never had a problem. Never had a run-in with the police, nor stupid people, nor parents and children. Nearly everyone who saw us in action was rather impressed, especially a group of teens who stumbled upon us in the middle of an artillery duel during the RM Classic. RM and WB were far from casual or young teams. Both sides used camo and shades. We painted our guns, stuck branches and leaves on them, and carried around black launchers taller than ourselves. No one really saw that as weird. When Brian broke his leg jumping down a mound at the Goffle Park, hardcore water warfare was the talk of the school. If high schoolers in Jersey could pull off water wars as a cool hobby, anyone could.

- Pinpoint organization. Know exactly who is coming at what time. Make a Facebook event, but you still have to call every single participant, possibly more than once. Follow the Time Rule of 3 - Give them a week's notice, then a day's notice, then call the day of. Scout out your field a week ahead of the battle, then the day before, then early the day of. Have rules, boundaries, that kind of stuff in writing ahead of the battle.

- If someone gives you trouble, politely explain what you are doing, show them an example soaker, and remind them of precautions you are taking to make sure that no one outside of the fight is hit. Send your oldest, most mature player and/or team captains. Negotiate with a cool attitude, but be prepared to yield, especially if it's a cop who has problems. If someone is getting on your nerves, show absolutely NO outward reactions. Water war teams with a professional attitude are taken more seriously and better represent the sport. Punching someone, no matter how much they probably deserve it, would hurt every team's image. Remember that bad publicity does not respect town, county, state, or national borders.
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by Evangel » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:16 pm

Sorry, but I'm gone. This was supposed to be a way of finally doing whatever I want and BEING whatever I want, to be free from the control of this sad excuse of a society, to finally be free from rules. If this is what I have to deal with, then water warring isn't the haven I thought it was, so I'll just have find another haven.

Back in my day, there were never rules or regulations about water guns. It was just me and my friends randomly wreaking havoc in the neighborhood, soaking innocents without any kind of consequences, and bloodthirsty conflicts with other would-be water gangs for domination of the neighborhood. Times just aren't that special anymore. I guess those days are just gone for good.

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by emperor_james » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

If I had kids I wouldnt let them play with a guy dressed up like a ninja who talks online about carrying a knife and killing people who mess with him.
ownage

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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by HBWW » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:36 pm

*slams head on keyboard*

I can't freaking believe I went out of my way to organize a meet-up war for this, as if the crowd wasn't bad enough, it turns Mizukage's team leader, the one who mastered CQB with a FF, the one who made the uniforms and patches, the big named, honorable team leader, into not only one who wants to quit, but is almost making a drama out of it...

If only I had organized this at Firefighter's Park like I originally planned, none of this crap would've happened. We may have ran into a few disk golfers, or perhaps another group in the shelter, but those are easier to deal with than a whole huge group of people around a playground. I've made countless mistakes with this, I've done many stupid things and made many stupid decisions in wars but none of them, individually or all together, are enough for me to have the slightest inclination to quit. Both of our teams have gone too far to simply pick it up and leave like that.

Edit: I was thinking of locking it myself but decided to leave it for just a little longer.

As a side note, I gotta say, I love how well you use your slogan.
HydroBrawl Water Warfare

Formerly CA99

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isoaker
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Re: Well this was a waste...

Post by isoaker » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:02 pm

This thread has gone from bad to worse; as a result, I'm opting to lock it.

Final thoughts on this thread:
@C-A_99: don't blame yourself for this; there is no way to know in advance that annoying people might be present at your intended place of combat nor could you know how things would evolve from there. At least, though, the setbacks you've faced in your own battles has not discouraged you from pursuing what you enjoy.

@Evangel: there is a lot of good advice posted above, but it is solely up to you whether to strive to follow a more positive route or choose the alternative. A Water Warrior is one who wishes to be one in spite and despite of all the forces that attempt to inhibit such an activity. Here, we can feel and share the pain and frustration of how some others view our sport. However, I can not and will not tolerate any suggestions of force or violence as an attempted solution for current problems; things just aren't that bad to warrant such extreme measures.

Whether you wish to stay or go is solely your choice. I do hope you reconsider as you have been a great contributor to the community, but if you retain your negativity and continue to advocate violence, your welcome would be short-lived.

Will you leave or will you Leave NO one dry? It's your call.

:cool:
:: Leave NO one dry! :: iSoaker.com .:

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