Water Warfare needs the "War" part revived

General questions and discussions on water warfare regarding tactics and strategies.
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DX
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Post by DX » Fri May 19, 2006 10:05 pm

I've been holding this rant back for the past 8 or so months, hoping things would improve. Well no, they only got worse:

Ok, it has gotten kind of ridiculous over the past few years how much the "war" part of "water wars" has been declining. Belisaurius used to complain about how all those mighty teams of the past were dying out, but now I really see wars as a whole fading into oblivion. You wonder why Belisaurius stopped posting? Not for lack of interest. He's still into water wars, I talk about them with him on a daily basis. He stopped posting due to lack of interest in wars on the part of other people. A few reasons for this shift:

Slump in site-building: The amazing level of activity in 2004 stimulated a huge wave of new sites. However, things started to slide in 2005 and continuing to the present day. I used to post on 8-12 active water war-related forums. Now I post on like only 3-4. The number of active websites has fallen to a dangerous low, while an unusually high amount of veterans have vanished. This is just how trends work, but this also means that organized war has taken a major hit. Great sites such as GnG and Hydrowar are fading away, with nothing other than SM left to continue the tradition of highly-organized military-style wars with the integration of tech and tactics. The vacuum is serious.

More Talk, Less Fight:
I've observed how things go for since late 2003, and have concluded that people generally like talking about stock guns up to 6 times more than about wars. AKA, stock gun discussion takes precedence over actually going out and soaking. That is certainly disheartening, how much companies have managed to enslave an entire hobby to their every announcement and new line, to the point where people would rather talk about new guns than new battles. Water guns were made for doing something with. Collecting is different, since not everyone wants to fight with their guns/wants to fight with high-value guns. But seriously, praising the Flash Flood, or complaining about how a certain gun doesn't have a backpack connection, or debating the best retail gun in x category doesn't do much. It entertains and gives users something to talk about. But it doesn't do too much for the community, which depends on actually fighting to keep things going.

You may say that the community would function just fine without too much of an emphasis on wars. I mean, they are not as important is you think and aren't linked to the general health of the community. Ok, fine, let's test that with this scenario:

Suppose we let organized war go totally extinct. Ridgewood fades from the map, M4 fades from the map, Wetmonkey is gone, the future SM never happens. All of the old wars sites' hosting expires and they all disappear completely. Others with organized teams disappear forever. Future wars sites never get made. [All of the below assumes little intervention by individuals]

Some time goes by. Tactics start slowly dying out, all but the most basic 1HK gametype die out completely due to lack of players. The fallout hits fortification, supply, then ideas about team organization.

More time goes by. Soon ranks revert back to positions, mobile manuvering reverts back to bases, tap/pump reverts back to full shots.

More time goes by. The lack of organized war then will create a lack of the need for tech in battle. Mobile water balloon launchers disappear, followed by water cannon/launchers, followed by certain mods. Integrations are history, forget about cheap, battle practical homemades. We are left with only homemades designed for sheer performance. The homemade image reverts back to something dangerous, expensive, and hard to build. Homemade enthusiasm therefore drops sharply. Modding reverts to the plain-old, 50ft shooting k-mod due to the lack of the need for more. When people complain about bad stock guns, now there are less DIY options to answer with.

More time goes by. Now the fallout consumes the rest of the team-related items. Regional war ideas are history, team armories drop in caliber, teams drop in caliber. The destruction of all but the most basic tactics is complete. Water warfare ceases to be a psychological game and new users don't learn about fun unconventional tactics.

All this just because of the lack of organized war. Something you thought affected nothing. Without it, advances we've made in the past few years revert back/are lost. We are back in early 2004, folks, the same level of tech and war philosophy that existed when I first came to the community. We are back to the plain k-mod, the expensive homemades, the lack of variety in mod and homemade choices, the lack of advanced tactics from veteran commanders.

The only difference is back then there were still plenty of hardcore teams working to move soaking forward. Then, we were working toward what we have now. Without wars, there would be fewer tech advances, no tactics advances, a dimished push for more power. If this scenario were to play out, we would be back in the past, but without those vital teams and the individuals they bring to soaking. But also, the loss of war would mean the loss of the people who love it. Belisaurius left because of the loss of teams he used to keep in touch with. More like him would leave, if they haven't already. Wars even impact Soakerdom's membership levels! We would continue sliding backwards, destroying the fabric of the community itself from the inside. And as you know, internal bleeding kills. Again, all this is assuming that no new teams or new hardcore enthusiasts intervene to stop the slide. This is the worst case scenario, a total loss of what has been accomplished in areas whose health is not always thought of as to be linked in any way to fighting organized wars. The end of the community as we know it today.

You take for granted all the choices in modding, all the different homemade designs, those tactics I post now and then. You take for granted the simple k-mod and the simple flank. You take for granted the input and advice of those who could not go on without organized war. You take for granted the $30 homemade and the mods that allow you to nail an enemy from double their range. What you guys don't realize is how easily all of this information, philosphy, innovation, and will to keep grinding on could be lost forever.

If you bothered to read all the way up to here, I applaud your effort. I know I scare people away with long posts, especially on topics like this. But I had to get these feelings out. We're down to 3 hardcore teams, folks, 3. And it will be 1 come 2007. And if M4's team goes, that's it for hardcore war. We're done. What we have accomplished will be lost forever or gradually fade into the past. Those better guns you always talk about may be too late to save this wing of soaking.

I'm out to save the last pieces of organized war and put new vitality into fighting them. Kind of like a revolution in the way water wars are fought tactics-wise, and the way we think about mods and homemades. Imagine new advanced teams with homemades in their arsenals, water launchers, water balloon launchers, all the new ways to fight. Teams which know how to fight and use counters. Hopefully, others will help carry the torch onward. If so, we will continue to advance rapidly in Tech and create new tactics as we create improved "water weapons of mass destruction." If not, well then just hope that soaking armageddon is swift and painless.

-Join the Revolution and Soak On! :soakon2:




Edited By Duxburian on 1148096188
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Post by forestfighter7 » Fri May 19, 2006 11:07 pm

This article was quite inspiering. It was long:p but I for one, like long articles! I certanly agree on the fact that we need more tactiics articles:D !
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Post by Scavenger » Fri May 19, 2006 11:43 pm

I think the slump in site building revolves around the fact that people don't want to take/have the time to learn html. I would like to learn some, but I don't have the time. And then there is hosting, if you're just starting out, you're probably not going to want to pay for hosting.

I'm going to have a talk with one of my friends soon so I can finally figure out why he doesn't like water guns, then maybe I'll make some progress on starting a team. And if I have to, I will become a one man team and practice and improve tech by myself. As long as I have free time, I'll be doing what I can to keep water warfare from dying.

We're down to three teams now? Which one left? I'm assuming by process of elimination that it was M4's opposing team. We should have a page on one of the soaker sites as a census of the current teams and members of those teams so people can see how bad it is, and keep tack of other teams easier, maybe also have contact information.

Hmm... you could probably pull a few people in by posting a design for a 41WL or ITWL on SuperSoda, and then trying to get it on Hack-a-Day. We'd certainly get a lot of visitors then, but most of the vistors would be at SuperSoda, so there wouldn't be as much of a problem bandwidth-wise.

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Post by DX » Sat May 20, 2006 8:29 am

There are plenty of teams left, but less of the high caliber ones. And HTML should not be hard to learn, I taught myself in about 3 hours. I taught myself CSS and XHTML in even less time. There are places where you can learn by example, so in theory, you wouldn't even need to know any of it in order to make a site. And many good sites in the past used free hosts. Hydrowar, GnG, even some of the Aquatica forums.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Post by isoaker » Sat May 20, 2006 8:42 am

Yes. No. Maybe. Sorta.

There are a lot of good point in the article, but many that I don't quite agree with, either.

First off, I'm definitely pro for organized water warfare. IMO, the major thing lacking is a commonly accepted method of scoring in a water fight. Without a commonly accepted, easy to use scoring scheme, it'd rather difficult to get those less-disciplined-in-water-warfare to adopt any other play style apart from soakfest. A win-or-loss scenario enforces the need to have better skills and employ more tactics.

In terms of modification development and homemade development, while there is more discussion these days, I feel it is likely more about the growth of the internet and freedom to exchange info with like-minded individuals more than anything else. Even back when iSoaker.com was merely Aquatechnology, I was reading about those modding their blasters, those building water balloon launchers, etc. Modding had been around since the start of the online soaker communities and, IMO, would always exist as long as their are those interested in tinkering with things and trying to improve/enhance their water warfare experience. There may be a lull for awhile, but things do manage to pick up after some time.

Better rules and scoring systems are the only way to make water fights/wars into a better defined competitive sport. More discussion on rules and tactics would hopefully allow further development in this area and, with clearer rules, perhaps more can be enticed into trying out organized water warfare. From there, as numbers increase, the interest in better performing water blasters will become prevalent since better blasters allow for better gameplay. In the end, though, even with a well-established set of rules, it will be the stock soaker which will be the ones first used by the majority in their initial experience on the water warfare field.

As an aside, homemade soakers are far from 'cheap'. The materials may not cost as much or perhaps along the lines of a stock soaker, but if you factor in time, skills needed, labor, and tools, they become much more expensive. This, though, is another story.

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Post by Speedbeetle06 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:54 pm

I must say that this article inspired me to do somthing about this negative slope in growth and tech. But however, I do not know what I as an individual can do to impact soakerdom and stop this horrible trend from continuing. If anyone knows what an individual can do to help, please post a response or PM me.
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Post by isoaker » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:17 pm

If anyone knows what an individual can do to help, please post a response or PM me.


There are so many things an individual can do to promote more organized water warfare, the simplest being trying to encourage friends, family, and acquaintances into first getting interested in soaking and perhaps even by starting them off with more organized, but simple water war game rules.

Having an accepted means of determining who's ahead is a great way to promote friendly competition and make others more aware that soaking can be much more than just a random squirtfest.

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Post by Speedbeetle06 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:57 pm

But if I make an organized team, how will that impact soakerdom as a whole?
EDIT: Sorry for the one line post :p




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Post by DX » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:41 pm

One team [or two] can make a BIG difference. Here is a list of things that were spawned from the RM-Waterbridge rivalry:

Douchenator and mobile water balloon launchers
APWL
PC-Swapping Integrations
A version of a piston-pressure homemade
Homemades designed for battle practicality
1500 20x nozzle with no drilling
The discovery of 2100 marks
The popularization of modding 2100s
The use of a sizable amount of unconventional tactics
Changing the position system to one based on ranks
The concept of not using bases
APR homemades
The inverted T PC
Tactics for no purpose other than confuse the enemy
New ways of conducting old tactics
The development of many 1HK variations
The invention of the "fist-sized kill" rule
The first implementation of the Regional War concept
Overall advances in modding, homemades, and water balloon launchers
Getting new people involved in water warfare, and some in the community [take me for an example]

I would say a simple pair of teams does make a difference.
:laugh:
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Post by Speedbeetle06 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:05 pm

Wow, RM did all those things?
But the only thing is if I start a team it won't be as hardcore as RM and Waterbridge. Yes there will be tactics and some mods, but I am one of like four around here who know about those things and has a concept of organized war. When we play 1HK, people on the other team don't look at it as a 'war' and obey the '30 second rule' we have, they think we don't care if they break rules. Basically its a squirtfest for them, and a 1HK for us.
However, if I get two tactitions on each team, maybe it would be better. (Our battle this saturday will be 4v4)
Do you see where I'm coming from on the team thing?
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Post by Lt.Winters » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:50 am

I like this article, water warfare seems to be on a downhill. But there's not much that I could do, I got no team (or in one), much of the life of teens around the area has changed to the point where even having a water gun is childish, no one likes to use tactics or have rules in a "organized" war, and those "organized" wars end up to be a free-for-all. :(
And this maybe a odd thing to post but, after learning "patroling" at cadets you wonder what you can use that knowledge for: Tactical sims, etc. But not able to use it. :angry:
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Post by wetmonkey442 » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:56 pm

There were many valid points in that article, but also a few that, in my opinion, needed to be adressed. First and foremost, I believe that the number of people who take water warfare seriously has not gone down at all. However the size of the "hardcore" community online has certainly diminished. I think it is important to realize that there is no one reason for the decline in water warfare related content. The conversations on the forums have grown stagant the past year or so, I will be the first one to say it. However, that doesn't mean that it is the wrong way to go. Allow me to explain.

If the online community is composed of new members who would rather talk about their Flash Flood than use it, the members who would rather use their Flash Flood than talk about it have no responsibility to try and convert the former party. There is a dividing line in Soakerdom, one that I am sure has been evident since the early days of online soaking. In fact, it may have become noticable only when the discussion of soaking went digital. However, it is unfair to say beyond a reasonable doubt that the community should take water warfare more seriously. I do, and I know that there are many others out there that do as well. The older more "hardcore" community has no obligation to try and shape the way the community views water warfare for one simple reason: The members do what they want to do, not because it is what they should do but because it's what they like to do.

When I joined, and I reached the fork in the road that split the members who liked to fight with the members who liked to talk, I chose the former. Is it really anyone's fault that the fork in the road has narrowed one path down considerably, while opening up the other path? And is it our duty to try to pull members against the flow back up to the junction and onto the other side?

Let people do what they want, and to allow myself to remain as cynical as I like to appear, let me end with this: I don't care if some 12 year somewhere likes talking about his gun more than using it, when I have five friends within walking distance of my house that would love to come over and half a "hardcore" water fight.

Is it my fault they don't post online?
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Post by isoaker » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:42 pm

wetmonkey raises an interesting point. There are undoubtedly a lot more than the 800-or-so members that have registered on the various Soakerdom forums who engage in water fights.

There are so many people who enjoy water warfare, but really would find it odd to interact and post online regarding it. That said, I don't think Duxburian's desire is to necessarily convert people. However, there just may be those out there who are looking for more, but don't know or hadn't thought about holding more organized water wars. There are also those who may want to hold them, but don't have a good starting set of rules or ideas on how to resolve some areas on conflict. Having guides and game ideas available online for others to browse as needed should help promote water warfare even if it doesn't translate to increased forum memberships.

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Post by DX » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:09 pm

You should be able to tell that this is more of a rant than a well-thought-out article. An article on this would be much more logical and less cynical, or at least less cynical-sounding.

I don't want to convert, brain-wash, or any of that kind of stuff. The aim is to keep good wars going and increase interest in organization, tech, and tactics. Because without organized wars, we start to lose tactics and tech that we wouldn't need otherwise. I didn't even consider our wars "hardcore" until this year when I compared us to others. Ambushing in pouring rain, crashing through reeds in hot pursuit, throwing one's self down a hill to avoid being hit, and the such, I did not consider anything special. But I realized how few teams ["play"] fight seriously to the point when it becomes war and water becomes ammo. Painting guns and covering them with burlap wasn't anything special either, until I realized that so few others go that far!

As for the dividing line in Soakerdom, I have never been on the "Talking" side. I have always prefered to display what I post right on the battlefield. Talking about guns to me is boring, I would rather shut up and let my guns do the talking!

I also wouldn't have such a sense of urgency if my team wasn't in probably its final season of glory. Replicating what goes on in this town wars-wise would be near impossible in many other locations. Not only will I have to start over, I will have to somehow procure a new enemy team as well! Hopes for a college team depend on the college I get into. And after college it will be even more difficult to get enough interest to support a team.

I'm also kinda tired of seeing either the same old tactics posted, or bad tactics posted, or bad methods of using good tactics posted. These wars have been producing exciting new tactics and new uses for the old ones, but if no one's fighting on this level, who's going to listen?

Bottom line: I'm mostly scared that everything my team, friends, and self have worked for will go to waste and disappear just like everything else tends to do. And with so few people able to carry the torch, the chances of our experiences being totally forgotten is greatly magnified. Without another runner at the line, the baton cannot be passed off and the race is lost.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Post by wetmonkey442 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:51 pm

A direct C/P of a reply I made to Nibordude's thread at SM:
As far as the article goes, it was short but good. Actually, a lot of websites began to fail, and members began leaving before the fall of the second WWN. Remember there were two of them, a first and second. I felt the first WWN had a lot of holdovers from Aquatica and still had that feel of a new hobby with fresh content. However the fall of Aquatica was really, in my mind, what started the gradual downgrade of quality soaker discussion. SSC began to pick up a community during the time of WWN, but it was never big. When WWN fell, SSC picked up a lot of the members, because there was no where else to go. WWN had failed twice, and members were reluctant to join any Invision board. The introduction of the iSCF, is in my mind, a ghost of WWN. Even though iSoaker will try and discourage thoughts of this, when I think of a forum that best resembles what WWN was about, I think of iSCF. However, it is not as popular as WWN, nor do I think it ever will be. The discussion at iSCF is better only because there is not as much of it as there is at SSC. Now that may sound harsh, but it's just my opinion.

SM has turned into a pretty large set of forums, larger at least than I think Nibordude or Duxburian predicted it would be. When I joined, I joined to get away from the heyday after the fall of WWN. I didn't post much after joining iSCF until I joined SM. Sm has still retained the almost invisibility among newer members, members who don't take enough time to thouroughly read anyone's reply and learn of SM's existence. I am glad for this, although this has led to the misconception among many 7th generation members that SM is an elitist forum based solely on the development of homemades and modifications. This is untrue, but it keeps away the members we wouldn't want here anyway. Duxburian's article (or rant) over at iSCF brought up a lot of good points, but was flawed in one major area. The evolution of any type of community is through the actions of all of the members of the community, and unfortunately we can't stop the way new members act. I think that SM is now sometimes trying too hard to change the perception of homemades at other forums, when we should be focusing our attention on ourselves. Do not make a mistake, I'm not saying we should close ourselves off from other forums and let them rot with newbs. However, I think that we need to focus more on the interests of SM. We've become the 3rd largest forum on the internet. It shouldn't just be about size though. Let's concentrate on quality discussion because only through quality discussion will we spur true interest in "hardcore" water battles.

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Post by isoaker » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:12 am

The introduction of the iSCF, is in my mind, a ghost of WWN. Even though iSoaker will try and discourage thoughts of this, when I think of a forum that best resembles what WWN was about, I think of iSCF.

This statement I wouldn't just discourage, I completely disagree with it. These forums on iSoaker.com can NEVER be what WWn net was simply because of its location. Being the iSoaker.com Forums, the focus here leans more towards the development of iSoaker.com and water warfare, not overall Soakerdom and water warfare. While I do support the development of other sites and communities, these forums are definitely more aimed at developing content for iSoaker.com. WWN was developed to be a general water warfare forum. Though I was running it from a site management point of view, I strived there to keep all sites equal in terms of how things are presented and discussed. However, after the 2nd server crash, due to lack of finances to set-up a stable board and uncertainty about whether people would be interested in trying that a 3rd time, I gave up on that idea for now and set up iScF. There was one later attempt at setting up a similar-veined non-site-specific community (i.e. Water-Talk.org), but that did not last long nor was it ever well supported.

Anyhow, when it comes to post content, etc., as wetmonkey notes, it really depends on the membership. However, older membership and admin/moderators do have the power to affect newer members through setting examples and being good role-models. Being a good community role-model isn't about just blasting a new member is he/she posts something random. It's more about trying to understand the new member and being friendly while making recommendations on how they can improve post quality and overall interactions on the boards. Instead of replying with 'You have horrible grammar and spelling. Fix it!', perhaps 'I'm trying to understand what you're saying so I can help. Can you make your posts clearer?'

However, this is getting off-tangent from the whole WAR is Water WAR article. Perhaps, though, the first step is to bring the water war back into the forums (as opposed to primarily soaker-talk).

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Post by wetmonkey442 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:32 am

^I completely agree with you, however the fact remains that much of the active forum base of iScF was derived from WWN (although as Duxburian noted we lost a lot of members in the transition months). Along with many members from WWN, iScF picked up a lot of WWN's old moderators. A lot of the similiar topics (war stories, RPs, review guides, list your arsenal topics) were posted as soon as people made the switch. It's no wonder why I might associate these set of forums with WWN. WWN and SSC have always had two different feels to the forum, because iSoaker always ran WWN (I know there were other Admins, but iSoaker was by far the most active) and Doom has always ran SSC. Now iScF has a lot of the same members, moderators, and topics that WWN had. iScF has always retained the feel of WWN, at least in my opinion. That's not neccessarily a bad thing, either.



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Post by Noodlez » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:27 am

I'm trying to find people and make my own team but my friends dont have super soakers but my nieghbors have soakers but they are like little kids that dont understand water warfare
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Post by WaterWolf » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:54 pm

More People actually Fighting and fewer just talking, sounds good to me. I hope the actual War part of the community begins to flourish once again. That article inspired me to do more advertising for my Team-in-progress.

This Emoticon works so well with this article, I just had to add it.

:soakthemall:




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The Maple-Mountain-Marines.

Terrifying, but oddly refreshing.
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