Duelfest 2

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Duelfest 2

Postby marauder » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:11 am

**NOTE**

The Duelfest topics have been moved to Water Blasters forum as the focus is on the blasters and how they compare to each other.

**NOTE**


Rob and I are meeting up again this weekend. One thing we will be doing is comparing a variety of medium and light primaries, most as of yet untested. All matches will go until the water runs out, 1 hit scores. After the first round we will swap guns. Upon completion of each match we will add up the # of hits by gun. We will not get to all of these matches, so please tell us which matchups you want to see most, and then go ahead and predict as many outcomes as you want anyway. Winner gets bragging rights.

XP 150 vs XP 310
Blazer vs XP 150
Waterlord vs XP 310
Waterlord vs XP 150
Waterlord vs Blazer
Gargantua vs XP 310
Gargantua vs XP 150
Gargantua vs Blazer
Gargantua vs Waterlord
Python 2 vs XP 310
Python 2 vs XP 150
Python 2 vs Blazer
Python 2 vs Gargantua
Python 2 vs Waterlord
CPS 1200 or 1000 vs any of the above

Make your prediction for each match on which gun will win.
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby marauder » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:20 am

Matchups I want to see most -
XP 310 vs XP 150
XP 310 vs Python 2
Python 2 vs XP 150
Python 2 vs Gargantua
Gargantua vs Blazer
Gargantua vs Waterlord
^this all might change.

Predictions
XP 150 12 to XP 310 10
Blazer 8 to XP 150 8
XP 310 8 to Waterlord 7 (mobility wins)
XP 150 7 to Waterlord 5 "
Blazer 6 to Waterlord 5
Gargantua 8 vs XP 310 5
Gargantua 7 vs XP 150 6
Gargantua 7 vs Blazer 6
Gargantua 7 vs Waterlord 5
XP 310 12 vs Python 2 11 (P2 gets out to early start but starts misting)
XP 150 8 vs Python 2 6
Blazer 8 vs Python 2 7
Gargantua 9 vs Python 2 5
Python 2 6 vs Waterlord 5
CPS 1200 or 1000 vs any of the above CPS beats everything

Gun rankings at end of the day -
#1 CPS 1000/1200
#2 Gargantua
T3 Blazer
T3 XP 150
#4 XP 310
#5 Python 2
#6 Waterlord

Previous Results
Previous Results Original
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby SEAL » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:32 pm

In the interest of time, I'll just write which blaster I think will win, not by how much.

XP 150 vs XP 310: 150 should win easily with it's superior rate of fire.
Blazer vs XP 150: This one's more difficult. It could go either way, but I think I'll bet on the 150. It's seriously good.
Waterlord vs XP 310: Probably the Waterlord.
Waterlord vs XP 150: Same deal with the Blazer. I think the 150 will win, but not by much.
Waterlord vs Blazer: I'm not very familiar with either of these guns, so I'm just going to randomly guess Blazer.
Gargantua vs XP 310: Another difficult choice. The Gargantua has more power, but no shot time. I'm guessing it'll barely take the win.
Gargantua vs XP 150: I think the 150 will walk away with this one simply by overwhelming the Gargantua with its rate of fire.
Gargantua vs Blazer: I'd say the Blazer.
Gargantua vs Waterlord: Waterlord.
Python 2 vs XP 310: 310 because the P2 has misting issues.
Python 2 vs XP 150: 150 will crush it.
Python 2 vs Blazer: Blazer will also do so.
Python 2 vs Gargantua: Gargantua.
Python 2 vs Waterlord: Waterlord. In my opinion the P2 is kind of overrated.
CPS 1200 or 1000 vs any of the above: They will most likely sweep, but guns like the 150 and Blazer/Waterlord might put up a good fight.

I'm most interested in the 150 matchups, because it's pretty much the gold standard light weapon, and I'm interested to see if anything can topple it. If by chance the Blazer or Waterlord annihilate it, then I'd advocate for those guns to be moved up to mediums, and I'd be interested to see how they'd do vs. the 1000/1200/2100. Not as interested in matchups with the 310 because you hardly ever see them, though I am curious to see how it does against the 150. I'm also interested in the BBT matchups, to see which is the best light/borderline medium WW primary. The Vanquisher and Sphynx would be good ones to throw in there as well, if you have them (and the time).

However I would eventually like to see heavy blaster matchups, like 1500 vs. 2500, 2500 vs. 2700, 300 vs. 2000, etc. I was so close to doing that last one, but then my 2K started pump-shooting, grrrrr. My 300 isn't in the best shape anyway.
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby DX » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:09 am

[banana] Resultses! Due to time constraints, we only ran matchups against the Gargantua, the most intriguing new blaster available.

Gargantua 5
Waterlord 3

This was an interesting battle pitting mismatched strengths against each other, played in the woods along a path near a creek. The Gargantua had better RoF with fewer pumps and was lighter, with better balance. The Waterlord had better range and shot time, but was heavier and clunky. Therefore, the Gargantua user needed to play aggressively, but lacked the stats for it, while the Waterlord was better suited to offense, but wasn't mobile enough. At one point, the Waterlord's pump cap loosened and the pump came out, so it could only be pumped with a shorter stroke from then on. The Gargantua risks misting up when shot at high angles, while the Waterlord does not. In both rounds, the Gargantua ran out of water first. The Waterlord was never even close to running out.

Gargantua 2
XP 150 3

Yes, the 150 beat the Gargantua, in the woods at a small bridge crossing with large trees and a hill on both sides. We both know how to use a 150 to its full potential and it was not particularly outmatched. The Gargantua has more output, but not great range. The stream breaks up and has much smaller droplets than the 150's juicier droplets. The second round was actually a 0-0 tie and the 150 managed to take the bridge, driving the Gargantua back up the hill and behind a tree. While both soakers had low pumping and high tap shooting, the 150 still produced overwhelming RoF. In both rounds, the 150 ran out of water first. The Gargantua was never even close to running out.

Gargantua 2
Outlaw 1

The Outlaw is a very underrated little thing. We played this set in a clump of trees near the creek. While outclassed in most stats, the Outlaw had comparable range to the Gargantua and much, much greater mobility. Its range actually *rises* and the stream becomes more dangerous when it is close to running out of water. You have to hold it way up high and shoot kind of oddly, but those small bursts are all water and they fly. While it ran out first in the first round, the Gargantua was also fairly close to running out. They ran out at the same time in the second round.

Gargantua 3
CPS 1000 4

The matchup you've been waiting for, much closer than expected. Note that this was using the "Fruit Ninja" 1000, which has above average range. We played this set in an open area with construction equipment and some trees as cover. This was basically like an urban battle. The Gargantua was able to drive the 1000 back in the open, with a RoF twice as high. However, the 1000 had the advantage in cover, with its superior stream. It also had superior range, but the wind took that advantage away. Both soakers were about evenly mobile, with an even mix of offensive and defensive play, so this was a drawn-out set of battles. I believe that the Gargantua ran out first both times.

Conclusions:

Gargantua: Needs a nozzle mod to unlock its full potential. Can tangle with medium guns, but does not strongly outclass light guns. It's kind of like a Vanquisher in this regard. Has an excellent, semi-tracked pump and excellent handling. True CPS with low drop-off. Very worth buying.

Waterlord: Too bulky / not well balanced enough. Bad pump, but the soaker performs well if you can keep it pressurized. Would make for a good supporting and skirmishing soaker with its never-ending water supply.

XP 150: Still the gold standard of light primaries, but its lack of capacity against modern Buzz Bee guns is something to think about in long rounds.

Outlaw: Needs special techniques to shoot well. An almost empty Outlaw is more dangerous than a full one. Very underrated and overlooked.

CPS 1000: Vulnerable to being dethroned by future Buzz Bee soakers, especially if they keep producing ones with large, tracked pumps and great handling.
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby marauder » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:10 am

You did a great job describing the battles, but I have a number of takeaways that are much different from you. This is also why it's good to have multiple people doing these tests.

The only score difference I have written down is the Gargantua beating the 150 3 to 2. Did you watch the video? I also disagree with you about the RoF. The Gargantua has a very fast trigger, not as fast as the 150, but to use the word "overwhelming" is disingenuous. My assessment is that the Gargantua has a faster trigger than any BBT or CPS and all XPs and Max Ds released after '96. The biggest advantage the 150 had was that the stream "wrapped around" trees and stayed together while the Gargantua's stream tended to break up. Later on we used the quad burst quite effectively in flat terrain, but it didn't do too well in the hilly environment.

Taking the entire battle into context and not just the first 2 minutes (where the opposite was true), I found the Gargantua to be more mobile than the Outlaw, because the Outlaw is oddly shaped like the Vindicator. This is not a disagreement as I completely believe you that the Outlaw was more mobile for you. The Outlaw is insanely light, but the location of the pistol grip (behind the reservoir) and the location of the intake in combination with being PR make it to where you have to hold it odd ways to get the most out of its performance, especially as you lose water. I probably had about 10 or more mist shots, partial mist shots, and completely inaccurate shots due to the design. In the initial engagement the Outlaw performed quite even with the Gargantua, but the Gargantua gets more mobile as you use more water, while the Outlaw gets more awkward. The Gargantua also has this odd habit where the last second of a shot seems even more powerful than the first part. So, there are multiple ways where the Gargantua actually gets better with prolonged engagements. If you have good upper body strength the Gargantua should be just as mobile for you as the Outlaw, at least after you use the first 1/4 of a tank. I would expect SEAL to be just as mobile with the Gargantua, while someone like, well, Rob would take full advantage of the Outlaw. Take away is that if you are very agile but not overly strong/endurance strength in your traps and deltoids the Outlaw will be more mobile, but if you aren't particularly agile to begin with but you are strong it will make no difference. Average users will find the Outlaw more mobile, but this advantage will greatly decrease as the fighting continues to the point of the Gargantua having the advantage.

The CPS 1000 vs Gargantua was truly the premier battle. Rob predicted an 8 to 1 slaughter, but the Gargantua was actually leading early. The 1000 user tried to hit the Gargantua either from long range standoffs or close range ambushes where the much more powerful and "juicy" 5x nozzle is difficult to dodge and doesn't break up. My tactic with the Gargantua was to run the 1000 into the ground. The 1000 was only ever so slightly heavier, but the amount of pumping that was required, even with tap shots, kept it constantly retreating, and I mean literally running. I have written down that both guns ran out first once, but either way, the Gargantua had the field life advantage, we just fired it so much more.

Takeaways

Gargantua - Very well balanced and especially suited to protracted engagements with lots of running. Play aggressively with this gun, pumping and tap shooting constantly, essentially as if this was a 150. The best way I can describe this gun is as a 150 with not quite as fast of a trigger (but faster than average), or "stream wraparound," but with more flexibility (nozzle options, CPS, etc.) and field life. The 1x nozzle should be replaced with a 4x spacer. Tests will later show whether or not this helps increase range and the "wraparound" issue where the stream tends to break up against light cover (branches, leaves) instead of wrapping around the tree/poll/etc. and hitting the opponent. It should also be noted that this is not a HP gun, it is true CPS. I would recommend a 150, by the narrowest of margins, in short rounds with ample cover - e.g. 1 flag CTF - but for longer rounds I think we found a replacement. Best suited for Outpost, long OHS, and 2+ flag CTF when you can't get a CPS 1000 or greater or in medium/light only.

Waterlord - I was very impressed with the range and streamsize, but it was also super bulky and has pumping issues. Would be a solid choice to have on your team if it's a large battle (think 5 v 5 or more) and you need support for guns that are more mobile but run out of water quickly like 2000s or 10ks. The best way to fight is to serve as fire suppression or support. Get some cover to offset your lack of mobility (it really is very awkward) and pumping issues and shoot as much as possible, even if you don't think you will get a hit at that moment, just push them back and move from one tree to the other. This will keep your opponents distracted and moving back so the 2000s/10ks/etc. can move in for more mobile kills. With that being said, I would still recommend a 2700, 300, or Vindicator over this for the same purpose; so I probably wouldn't buy it.

Outlaw - Get in and get out quickly, you have good initial range and power, but without field life and with misting issues you will be at a disadvantage the longer the round goes on.

Duxburian wrote:Outlaw: Needs special techniques to shoot well. An almost empty Outlaw is more dangerous than a full one. Very underrated and overlooked.


I'm not sure I understand you correctly, because both of us had issues when it was running low on water. I mean, I get that more air = more power sometimes, but if that had been a real war and we didn't stop when 1 gun ran out the Outlaw would have had to retreat to refill with cover from its team or face destruction. There was a solid 2 minutes where if you had pressed me with the Gargantua you would have gotten a hit. It is my opinion that you perform better than average with both the Outlaw and 150. Take that as a compliment, not as a slight against your analytical skills. I think most people who have used the Outlaw would agree with me that as water runs out it doesn't actually gets better, but becomes a liability.
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby SEAL » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:13 pm

Wow, some low scoring this time around! I honestly was not expecting the Gargantua to have such a high rate of fire. I figured it'd behave more like a Pulse Master or something. I guess that makes it better than expected, which is great. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does with a bigger nozzle, and I should probably pick one up at some point. But you didn't test it against the Blazer? I would've liked to have seen that one.

That's interesting about the Waterlord. It doesn't look like it'd be that unwieldy from the pictures, but I do know that it's quite wide. How does it compare to the Gorgon, handling-wise?

I have an Equalizer, which is what the Outlaw used to be called. I pretty much agree with marauder on it. It's quite temperamental (I've gotten mist shots on a nearly full reservoir), and kind of awkward to use. Not nearly as bad as the Vindicator, but similar. Also, when I measured the range several years ago, I only recall getting like 36 or 38, not 42. Of course mine could be a dud, either that or the Outlaw is in fact an improvement over the Equalizer. Anyway, those are the reasons that I never use it. I get much better results out of the 150 or 270.
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby marauder » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:57 pm

The Gargantua's PC is small, but it is pure CPS, charges quickly, and has a very quick trigger. That all makes up for it. Nothing will ever be as quick of a shot as a 150, but if you even end up in the same sentence you're doing well. That's the Gargantua. I will do the nozzle mod this week and provide feedback. I will also provide another range test. Initial range was 35 ft on 1x, 38 ft on 2x, and 37-38 ft on quad burst, but it was kind of windy out. FWIW, the 150 was hitting about 36, but the stream stayed together vs branches, leaves, etc.

I could possibly work out a duel between the Gargantua and Blazer sometime with my friend Joe. Possibly. If not, maybe we can do that if anyone comes down early for MOAB.

I honestly think the Gorgon is less awkward than the Waterlord. What do you think Rob? The little pistol grip and trigger section is slippery and your hand ends up sliding against a hard edge above it, which is uncomfortable. It also can slip a little when firing, especially if you are trying to make a lunging shot or extend your arm one handed (good luck on that), which decreases overall accuracy. If you rotate the pump even a little you will have difficulty pushing it back all the way because it will not fit - image How iSoaker gives the Waterlord a 75/80 in ergonomics and encumbrance is beyond me. Rob didn't do any of his usual theatrics (you know, combat rolls, balerina moves, ninja moves, etc.) while carrying the Waterlord. At Hydrowar I wrap up both ergonomics and encumberance into "maneuverability," and I'm pretty sure the Waterlord will be getting low marks. It's also why I won't give the Outlaw a 100 on manueverability when I release the review. I don't care how light your gun is, if you have to hold it at an awkward angle to fire you won't be able to pull the same moves and it will affect your accuracy.

Moving on..
The Gorgon has a severe pump lag unless modded, and even after that the pump is very stiff (I may have fixed that though, will update later). The Waterlord didn't seem stiff or to have much of a lag, it was just awkward and fell out, which is also not good. The stream seemed even more powerful than the Gorgon. Isoaker gives 41 ft as the range. I was just guessing 42 by the battle so this lines up. Rob states that his Waterlord was pretty rusty, which is also not an issue the Gorgon has. I'll put my Gorgon back together and see if we can work something out with a comparison.
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Re: Duelfest 2

Postby DX » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:07 pm

I will double check the footage about the Gargantua vs 150. I may have written down the right numbers in the wrong positions. While they both have fast triggers, low pumping, and similar range, I based the "overwhelming" comment on the 150 being able to force the Gargantua back from a choke point and uphill to behind a tree. That tree prevented the 150 from advancing further and the attack stalled. Otherwise, the 150 was prepared to keep attacking uphill. In terms of field position, and offense-defense balance, that round was the most mismatched. Of course, in an actual battle, the 150 needs to conserve much more than the Gargantua does, so the balance should shift back to the Gargantua attacking.

My judgment of the Outlaw, like with the 150 and everything else really, is when it's used optimally, with whoever has the most effective techniques. That is what the soaker is really capable of. Real world battle conditions usually require adjustments, but dueling is, IMO, intended to see what a soaker can really do.

You guys may find the Outlaw awkward in all kinds of ways, but it's so damn light that I don't mind, and have adapted to the point where the technique to use it is instinctive. I had the chance to really nail down how to use the thing during the Brooklyn war, that's where I discovered the low water shots as well. Arm up high, extend and stab with a wrist flick and immediately pull the trigger. You have to flick it and guide the stream with your follow-through in the direction where you want it to go. If you just hold it up high and pull the trigger, it will miss wildly. The Outlaw has to be an active extension of your arm and body. It's less like shooting a gun, and more like swinging a golf club.

When it starts to get low, you need a more level or even slight downward angle, and lunge your arm forward timing your trigger pull at the full extent of the lunge, putting manual "ooomph" into the shot. Your arm still needs to be way overhead. Those low water shots only contain the amount of water in a 150's tap shot, but they fly on target, and you don't get any mist. It was able to put out about a dozen of these shots before getting to the point where it was really running out and misting. Ben, if you are judging the misting on when we were both running out and were talking about how we needed to go until we were actually out, these low water shots were the 2-3 minutes or so before that point. You were behind a tree and I was in the semi-open. I was shooting at shoulder and head level, overshooting a bit at times, as it was flying farther than expected. This is the only soaker I have been able to achieve this effect with so far.

In a controlled test with 0 MPH wind and a tape measured, concrete surface, I got exactly 42ft out of my Outlaw, using a normal 45 degree angled shoulder level shot. In the wind at Legend Park on dirt, we got about mid-30s out of it. The small stream is definitely very affected by weather conditions. I haven't range tested the low water shots, or the elevated arm shots in general. It would be difficult to standardize, as I usually use a 1 or 2 step lunge as well, and the angle varies depending on where the target is.

I would wager that the Gargantua would beat the Blazer by a point or two. The fast pumping and trigger should make up for a lot of things.

I agree that the Gorgon handles better than the Waterlord. There just isn't enough grip support under the Waterlord. It's a strong platform, but a very top heavy one. If your hands get wet at all, it's tough to dodge and change direction with. Also, note that my Waterlord has the valve and pin fully lubed. It had a sticky trigger new out of the box, so sticky that I had trouble tap shooting it. The Waterlord may not have pump lag like a Gorgon, but do you have to "wait" for it to finish drawing before you can pump in. The Gargantua was more like a CPS or XP pump, where you could push it in immediately. I found the Gargantua's pump rather stiff, but it did not affect pumping speed.
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