Isoaker 2015 range testing

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jja
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Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby jja » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:25 am

i just saw the range stats for 2015 blasters on Isoaker.com.

12.5m for the Waterlord is very impressive.

however 12m for the water warriors steady blast and drench master is much further than other piston blasters, and seems to me to be rather unrealistic - how is BBT getting that kind of distance out of piston blasters?

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isoaker
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby isoaker » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:22 pm

Well, there are at least five options:
1) I'm lying
2) I was unable to measure ranges accurately for those particular blasters, but ok for the other ones tested (I also tested the piston-based Nerf Super Soaker Splatterblast)
3) I made all the statistics up (similar to one, but with more creativity) :goofy:
4) I got significantly stonger
5) there is some actual difference in these water blasters models to explain their increased range performance

Unfortunately, I haven't done full stats for many piston-based blasters before.

For an older model, the Nerf Super Soaker Shotwave, it's functional range was measured at 10.5m for angled shots. Its output was measured at ~20mL/s (~0.6oz/s).

For the Water Warriors Drench Master, it's functional range was measured at ~12m for an angles shot (1.5m farther). Its output was measured at nearly 40mL/s (~1.3oz/s).

As seen on pressurized water blasters, those with stream settings that have larger available output tend to get better range. Whether output explains the difference in this case remains to be seen, but I can say multiple shots were done so these are not just from some fluke shot.

Of course, it just cannot be output since the Water Warriors Steady Blast has a measured output for only ~17mL/sec (0.56oz/s), but also was able to hit the 12m mark. However, the Steady Blast, though piston-driven, behaves like a pressurized blaster when pumped rapidly. My recollection was the initial stream only reached around the 10m mark, but as the strream continued through continued rapid pumping, range reached by the stream increased.

In the end, *ALL* statistics on iSoaker.com should be taken with a grain of salt. I am usually only able to test one or two samples at best and variation between how well these blasters are manufactured could easily account for variation in their performance. I wouldn't be surprised if many blasters of the same model shows a 1m-2m difference in range due to consistency of nozzle size, nozzle smoothness, stream lamination, tubing smoothness, pump-consistency, etc.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby marauder » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:21 pm

I'm not surprised at all that piston blasters can achieve that type of range. Home made stream machine variants regularly get in the 50 to 60 foot range. It's really just a giant pump with a nozzle on the end of it.

One question about the Waterlord. Do you know if its hp bladder is similar in design to that of the Vindicator or is it the original (Blazer, Orca, etc) style? I hope that we see it in the US soon. If not I may have to find a way to order from Canada in the near future. I have a job all but guaranteed (just have to pass the drug test which will be easy since I've never done drugs in my life) I'll have more disposable income for this sort of thing come June.
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby jja » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:07 pm

@Isoaker your points are very interesting: i really don't think you would lie or make up results - i did not mean to suggest anything like that i just was interested how the performance gains over other piston blaster were done. Every piston blaster i have ever used has struggled to reach 10m only the WW shark and NSS shot blast have done so easily (although the shot blast isn't really piston)

i see exactly what you mean with the steady blast acting like a pressurized blaster is pumped fast (faster than the blaster initially outputs water to get compression on the spring) with the spring providing the power to get the range above 10m. I wonder why the steady stream can only get 9m and the steady stream 2 only 9.5m, surely the same effect can occur (do they have weaker springs?)

as for the drench master i guess the output or pump volume (27ml) is providing the 12m range. the X-Stream Pump Master 460 X-S (never heard of it but i've seen it on Isoaker.com) reaches 11m and that has a pump volume of 26ml. with some more optimization and range error (from rounding to nearest half meter) considered i can see 12m being quite plausible.

i wonder how far the water warriors shark can fire then? it has the same pump volume as the drench master. have used one in the past and the range seemed impressive (it looked over 10m)

@Marauder - Stream machine type blasters tend to out range piston blasters due to better flow/less turbulence and much higher pump volumes. as you know piston blasters have a check valve before the nozzle to stop the pump drawing in air as well as tubing with probable bends. In a syringe type system there is no check valve or tubing before the nozzle so the water has a straight shot out of the nozzle. as such you can't really compare the two. i think of them as separate categories of blaster (especially different when considering refilling)

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SSCBen » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:19 pm

That syringe type water guns tend to get good range is an interesting subject. jja is right in that the lack of flow obstructions is one factor. Another that comes to mind is that large contractions (i.e., from the piston to the nozzle) reduce turbulence a lot. It is helpful to have a large pipe before the nozzle orifice. Most recent water guns have small pipes, which could cause the turbulence intensity to be considerably higher than if they had larger pipes. This subject merits further research, and I've made a note to do some photographic comparisons between a syringe type water gun and others to get more ideas.

I don't know if that applies to the Steady Blast, as I have not seen its internals. That the Steady Blast gets respectable range with minuscule flow is interesting.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby the oncoming storm » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:33 pm

SSC Ben it just dawned on me while reading your post that this might be what is wrong with the lamination in Gorgons and XP 250s running 10X nozzle drills.

That said I need to see if a coffee stirrer laminator in it will help my 250's range on 10X.
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SSCBen » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:29 pm

That's a possibility.

Could someone who has a Stream Machine or something similar try some tests for me? I'm interested in what the diameter of the nozzle is, how far it shoots, what the shot time is, and what the diameter of the piston tube is. I think this data could prove useful to water gun design. (I could buy one myself, but I'm busy right now and it'd have to wait until summer.)

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby CDMT » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:18 pm

Image

Ben if the weather is decent tomorrow I could test this group out. But are you looking for the sweet spot where most of the water goes or furthest drop?

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby the oncoming storm » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:24 pm

CDMT all the range testing the community does is to end of puddle, as that is the farthest distance you can possibly land a "hit" at.
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SSCBen » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:22 pm

CDMT, end of the puddle as the oncoming storm suggested would be good. Thanks for the willingness to test this!

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby CDMT » Fri May 01, 2015 1:39 am

Ben given the knowledge that you have shared in developing better homemades I feel like it was a small thing to ask of the community. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I look forward to seeing your future developments. Here the stats of the Dipsticks as tested:

Image

Image

I also included chamber length as well. You'll notice that the 2 Homemades are listed close in terms of chamber length despite one clearly being quite a bit longer. The reason for this is that I made one too long and I am only able to draw it so far. The homemades to be honest perform better in the water as they are less unwieldy in terms of weight. In place of the normal O rings I use a single pipe test plug instead. I was wondering though if I there is any benefit to switching over to the more expensive Buna N piston cups? I was wondering what your opinion was of them in terms of reliability and level of friction.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SSCBen » Fri May 01, 2015 10:21 am

Great work CDMT. This data is very valuable to me.

Thanks for including the chamber length as well. That made me realize I forgot something which I might be able to calculate from the chamber length. Is the chamber length how far the piston moves? If so, then I can calculate the water volume. If you wouldn't mind, could you measure how much water each one takes when full just to be extra sure this is right? Should be pretty easy with a measuring cup. Sorry for neglecting this.

Using estimated chamber volume, the homemades have outputs of about 25X. This means their range-to-flow ratio is about 2.4 ft/X. The SS 300 gets about 6.7 ft/X. My SuperCPS design got about 6.4 ft/X. The CPS 2000 is about 1.2 ft/X. So the water guns measured are not fantastic in terms of this metric, but maybe if they had smaller nozzles, they might be. (I want to highlight that the SS 300, SuperCPS, and CPS 2000 numbers are very approximate, and the numbers measured in this thread are better.)

I am curious about the range increasing with chamber length in the Stream Machines. The flow rate of the smallest Stream Machine seems low, probably because it takes some time to accelerate the pump up to speed. The smallest two might not ever get up to maximum speed/flow. There might be another effect. In the past I hypothesized that stream length might be a factor in range, with longer stream lengths being better. This data might help confirm that idea. However, I am pretty unsure of this hypothesis, as there's one other possible explanation.

I'll do some more detailed analysis this weekend. No time to open a spreadsheet right now.

As for the seals, I'm not sure. I like piston cups myself, but I don't know if they are good for these sorts of water guns. The reliability is excellent in my experience, provided they are aligned correctly. The friction might be too high, but I don't have any data on this.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby marauder » Fri May 01, 2015 10:27 am

Wow, this is one of the most exciting discussions of the year. The discussion over calculating water volume due to piston length gave me another idea. It would be cool to go back and look at various blasters' pumps and calculate in theory what their pump volume should be vs the measured pump volume. I'm sure that the results would be very close. The practical application of this would be that you'd be able to calculate the pump volume of home made pump designs; which I'm sure you could do already given the appropriate calculations, though no one has tried that yet.

Another thing I'd like to find out is if there is a way to be able to calculate pump resistance or the amount of pressure that one needs to exert to pump a particular blaster.
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby the oncoming storm » Fri May 01, 2015 10:39 am

CDMT Buna N piston cups are bad for warping inside homemades

SSC Ben's LPD has failed in this way multiple times, Super Cannon 2 was made non functional by warped piston cups and never fixed, DX's Ruta Cannon was killed by piston cups. So no I wouldn't change out a working part in your homemades for one just about guaranteed to fail with use.


M4 if you know pump ID then you can go to SSC's physics section's APH designer, and plug in pump ID, total chamber volume, pump volume, and number of pumps into the left column and it will give force to pump in the right column.

It works for CPS's as well but you must add pumps till the calculator reaches said operating pressure.


(example the XP 150 needs 19.4 lbs of force to add that 9th pump, example the 300 requires 36.5lbs of force to add the 19th pump)
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby Cochise » Fri May 01, 2015 1:59 pm

I love physics. Hadn't explored SSC until now. This is excellent...

I haven't used any super soakers with bigger pumps, but the stream machines can require a good bit of force to shoot. Definitely gotta hit the weight room this summer so I can keep firing 'em without wearing out. I may have to make my own homemade.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SSCBen » Fri May 01, 2015 3:37 pm

marauder wrote:Another thing I'd like to find out is if there is a way to be able to calculate pump resistance or the amount of pressure that one needs to exert to pump a particular blaster.


The APH designer is one way. You don't need to use that, as the math is pretty simple. The pressure seen at the pump will be a bit higher than that seen in the pressure chamber, but you can approximate it as the chamber pressure. The equation is F = A * P where A is the pump area (pi * d^2 / 4, where d is the pump diameter) and P is the pump pressure difference.

the oncoming storm wrote:Super Cannon 2 was made non functional by warped piston cups and never fixed


This might be true for someone else's build of the design, but last I checked, mine still works fine. If I were to redo the design, I would put a wooden spacer in between the two piston cups to prevent warping, though.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SEAL » Fri May 01, 2015 5:36 pm

Very interesting. I always thought Stream Machines (the larger ones anyway) could hit around 60'. I guess not. I am interested in a graph of range vs. the amount of force applied to the pump. I've noticed that if I push it too hard, the stream breaks up more and it doesn't go as far. Don't really know how you'd test that without special equipment though.

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Can't say I feel the same way, but having a lot of physics knowledge sure makes me feel smart, haha.
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby the oncoming storm » Fri May 01, 2015 8:50 pm

I checked, mine still works fine.
SSC Ben

I blame your brother Drenchinator for that he said it was broken because warped piston cups all the way back in February of 2013
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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby SSCBen » Sat May 02, 2015 11:34 am

Interesting. As far as I remember, it's sitting in my parents' garage still functional, but I could be wrong. It's possible he tested it after the last time I did.

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Re: Isoaker 2015 range testing

Postby wetmonkey442 » Wed May 06, 2015 3:13 pm

Wow, the Warlord looks awesome. So the patent expired? What does this mean for BBT in the future?
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