Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Discussions of all varieties of stock water guns and water blasters.
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Andrew
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby Andrew » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:14 pm

That's the problem. Those teenagers who grew up with the Larami Super Soakers, are now adults. Hasbro have just gone back to aiming the entire line at kids again, assuming that there is no such thing as big kids (or at least there is no money to be made from them). :(

That and Hasbro are relying on the Super Soaker brand's reputation to sell blasters.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:57 pm

Yes, but some of those adults still want powerful water guns! :cps2500: It think that it would be nice for them to gear toward an older audience. They can keep making these kid guns, but if they started bringing back some mid sized and large Super Soakers, they would end up making more money. A lot of the audience that would be buying the larger ones are stuck inside playing CoD, but I still think that they would sell enough that it is worth it. Besides, plenty of my friends are like that and jump at the chance to have a "real war." What is funny is, it almost feels as if they are trying to make larger blasters yet failing at it. The new Lightning Storm looks pretty big and bulky and I doubt too many kids in there target range could carry it for too long. If they can make a gun that sized that is pathetic and weak, why not one the same size but replace the motor with a pressure tank? Any one with the strength to carry that thing would be able to pump at least a weak CPS blaster.

At this point, I think I am just preaching to the choir, but if Hasbro wants to make larger guns for the older crowd, I at least want them to do it right. Who knows? Maybe they have some secret marketing plan where they will suddenly come out with a new line of CPS guns and this is just so that they look that much more powerful. I am inclined to think hair driers and squirt guns are more likely though.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby marauder » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:34 pm

I understand why y'all think Hasbro isn't marketing adults - the new guns are not powerful at all. However, just by looking at their marketing tactics I would disagree with you. There's a lot of buzz about the new guns coming from the Nerf community, and Super Soaker has been holding waterwars at Florida State University the past few years. Also, look at the design of the guns. They look a lot more like real weapons than older Super Soakers did, tactical rails, scopes, buttstocks. Yes, I know you are thinking those are gimmicks designed for kids, but I believe we think that only because we associate those things with poor performance. Back in 2002-2003 there was a huge outcry from the community that guns looked stupid and childish. Several posters (XN and Sapper?) wrote articles about how they wanted guns with... buttstocks...tactical rails...and scopes. Lastly, if you look at the kids featured in Super Soaker commercials today, they are 3-4 years older than the kids featured in Super Soaker commercials from the early 90s.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby Andrew » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:01 pm

I agree, I would like tactical rails and buttstocks on blasters, but not at the expense of performance.

I see what you mean though. In some ways, Buzz Bee are doing the same thing (take the 'kid' on the back of the Colossus packaging compared to the kid on the back of the Sphinx).

Hopefully if the community makes similarly huge outcries this time round, we might end up with a combination of style, realistic design features AND performance. I just hope it doesn't take another decade to filter through.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby isoaker » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:35 pm

As seems to have been covered, I'll chip in a couple of thoughts here.

While many users are kids, there are many in the teenage+/college world who love and can easily handle larger, more potent water blasters.

The note about small kids having problems handling larger ones and crying if hit by larger streams is solved simply by not giving them the larger blasters. There is room for lighters water blasters for the younger crowd while having better performing blasters for the older group.

Style and performance can go hand-in-hand, but there's also a limit. One can only go so far with styling for a water blaster before you really begin compromising their capacity and potential performance. That said, think happy thoughts for future developments.

While the return of true 1998-level CPS-class blasters is probably not possible in the nearer term, the Water Warriors Colossus' largest nozzle is pushing out 50% the stream thickness of a CPS1000 and nearly matching its range; not bad for an air pressure blaster. A little more tweaking may show improvements in the area in future models, but of course, time will tell.

:cool:

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby marauder » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:15 pm

isoaker wrote:The note about small kids having problems handling larger ones and crying if hit by larger streams is solved simply by not giving them the larger blasters. There is room for lighters water blasters for the younger crowd while having better performing blasters for the older group.


I read a negative review on Target from a parent who bought a Hydrocannon for their 5 year old. As disappointing as the Hydrocannon is, I think the true failure here is the parent.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby atvan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:21 am

isoaker wrote:A little more tweaking may show improvements in the area in future models, but of course, time will tell.

:cool:

:cool:


Trying to tell us something? :goofy:
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby HBWW » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:04 pm

*sticky bump

I do have a question to raise: What does BBT do with the unsold blasters they have to buy back from stores? Is there any possibility for them to resell these items say, around the web? I'm curious because the WW Gorgon was still listed on Walmart's site, shown as being available at my local Walmart, but it wasn't picked up on Walmart.com's search function, only by Google. However, it still said "limited stock" for my store. The people there however, couldn't find anything. From here, I'd like it if there was some way to order it online from BBT. Perhaps I could email and ask them myself?

The note about small kids having problems handling larger ones and crying if hit by larger streams is solved simply by not giving them the larger blasters. There is room for lighters water blasters for the younger crowd while having better performing blasters for the older group.


Summer of 2012, I had a 2v2 OHK game around the house where each team had one older player and one younger. The younger kids couldn't handle the CPS's due to pumping and weight, so they got small Max-D's/WW's PR's, while the older players (specifically a friend and I) took up the CPS's. No crying from streams, no cheating, the game went pretty well. I think the youngest kid was around 6-8 yrs. (Of course, this doesn't speak for many or most people of that age range who come across water guns.)

Lastly, I've posted this again and again, but I still want to bring up the fact that BBT's ergonomics this year are incredible. I'm talking about the Python 2 and Colossus 2 in particular. The trigger guard is in the right place (only on index finger), and I really like the indented grips. With that said, intending only between the middle and ring finger (as on an AR 15) may be better for those with small or large hands, although for me, indenting all fingers is pretty comfortable (partially owed to how well they're shaped). Balance is great too since part of the reservoir goes behind the pistol grip, i.e. similar to on a bullpup such as a P90. Comparing to older blasters such as the Piranha or Tiger Shark, there is simply no comparison on the Colossus 2/Python 2 in terms of comfort and ergonomics. The reason I repeat this again and again is because we're often focused on negative aspects of blasters, such as the lower performance of the Colossus 2, but I really don't want to see BBT loose the incredible ergonomic improvements they've made this year in future blasters.

In the meantime, I'm trying to get my hands on a Python 2, just as an extra light blaster that's nice to have. I also can't make any judgements on the usefulness of the angle meter in combat, and I'd like to be able to. It's a feature that's easy for the community to write off as almost a gimmick, but I want to give it a fair chance, even though I disliked the electronic pressure gauges. (I have nothing against "analog" gauges however; ones that show exactly how much pressure is built-up, so long as they don't break they are quite useful.) Perhaps a cheaper alternative to gauges is some sort of indicator that shows full pressure when the PRV is about to activate. Sounds useless to us, but I'm going to be honest and say that there are times where I have trouble telling whether the PRV kicks in or not. (i.e. If pump resistance doesn't increase, no sounds/vibrations are made, etc.)

Style and performance can go hand-in-hand, but there's also a limit. One can only go so far with styling for a water blaster before you really begin compromising their capacity and potential performance. That said, think happy thoughts for future developments.


We have no shortage of textbook examples of this, thanks to Nerf SS. =p However, the opposite can also be true. I love the styling of the CPS 2000/2500 and even the Flash Flood, SS 300, and XP 150. I think "good style" is a very subjective thing that can easily be adapted to any water blaster in any form factor, the important thing is to ensure that the form factor, capacity, and performance needs dictate the style, and not the other way around.

Anyway, I'd say it's good that we managed to start playing exclusive BBT OHS games in community wars. The success of these games is owed to how closely BBT blasters perform to each other, and I don't see it as a compromise of anything (i.e. we're not giving up our CPS's to play these games), just as a game that adds more variety to wars, a game at which all of our armories can sufficiently support. The only armory item I'm really missing for the specialized games we've developed, is a powerful air pressure blaster for air pressure games. Best I have is an XP 150, but I'd like at least a Gorgon, SS 300, or APH. (Which is what I'll focus on building over the summer if I have time.) However, for BBT games, I have a Vindicator which has worked quite well for me, even though a Gorgon would be a nice addition. I guess I was too late, which is why I asked the question I did earlier in this post.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby isoaker » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:12 pm

CA99 wrote:I do have a question to raise: What does BBT do with the unsold blasters they have to buy back from stores? Is there any possibility for them to resell these items say, around the web? I'm curious because the WW Gorgon was still listed on Walmart's site, shown as being available at my local Walmart, but it wasn't picked up on Walmart.com's search function, only by Google. However, it still said "limited stock" for my store. The people there however, couldn't find anything. From here, I'd like it if there was some way to order it online from BBT. Perhaps I could email and ask them myself.

Unsold blasters are the stores' blasters, not BBT's. While BBT must pay some rebate cash depending on the number of unsold units, stores actually do typically manage to wipe out their stock overall (though some stock may be moved to other locations). BBT does not sell direct. While you could try emailing their customer support, I can pretty much guarantee they are not set up to sell direct to the consumer. Moreover, attempting to do so would jeopardize their relationships with the retailers.

As for the angle gauge, it may be a little useful during combat when doing a surprise attack if one has practiced earlier and has a better sense of what angle yields what range. Otherwise, in the heat of the battle, I don't think most would be looking at the gauge and simply doing tap shots, adjusting one's aim accordingly. There is usually not enough time nor need in an actively changing situation to be referring to the gauge. IMO, it's still best suited for training purposes, testing, and more precise surprise attacks. Beyond that, it doesn't affect blaster function and is not a point of potential failure (e.g. the way some of the older pressure gauges were) so it's a fun feature that adds some functionality without taking any other away.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby HBWW » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:37 pm

Ah, I thought (or heard) that manufacturers buy back unsold units. Perhaps that partially explains why the Gorgon is completely gone in my area, while others are reporting it to be available.

I figured that'd be the case for the angle meter: that it takes too long to pay attention to and that simply shooting and adjusting is a better/faster way to aim. Now, I could definitely see an angle meter being more useful for WBL's... =p

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby DX » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:29 pm

The angle meter is great when testing ranges. You can line it up with other guns to make sure they are actually properly angled before shooting. The benefit in battle, however, is further negated when you consider how the "optimal" angle is not necessarily within the green of the meter. Sometimes, you want to reduce the angle in order to get the stream to the opponent faster. It's a tradeoff where the higher angle stream gets more range, but is easier to dodge vs the lower angle stream gets less range, but is harder to dodge.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby the oncoming storm » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:40 pm

And thus why I tend toward leveler shots regardless of how much range that costs me. And most fights happen within slightly angled range anyway. My 300 can shoot 55' but I tend to fight in a narrow range band between 40 and 45' because further out shots are much easier to dodge.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby HBWW » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:43 pm

Obviously, it's also dependent on opponent distance. In any case, I've found that the main difference between a low angle and high angle stream is how easy it is to dodge, just as duxburian mentioned. It's why shots are best saved for when you can charge an opponent without them being able to retaliate in time.

Another factor to dodgability is how the shot is made. A single tap may be easy to dodge, but a short sustained shot (or multiple taps) won't be if aimed correctly.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby the oncoming storm » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:50 pm

I believe than stream speed has a major impact on effective fighting range my Gorgon with it's slower streams struggles to score hits past 30-35' vs my 300 at 40-45', as after 1 second of hang time shots are much easier to dodge even with volley fire
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby HBWW » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:45 pm

Stream velocity looks to be essentially a tradeoff between lamination and distance. You don't want your opponent hit by mere droplets they can count, but you also don't want then to be able to dodge as easily. Slow streams however, could be one of the culprits that prevent BBT blasters from performing as effectively against CPS's. I've noticed BBT blasters' streams are pretty well laminated compared to those of CPS's, which seems to be why they get close to CPS range even if they don't match the combat effectiveness. This also means that

Now, getting back to the original topic, I'm still seeing the safety myth being parroted around the web by people pointing out the fact that SS's are terrible these days. The CPS 2000 urban legend just won't die out despite lacking solid evidence. On the plus side, at least we're not seeing the shelf space excuse come up again. It is easily possible to pack plenty of performance into the size of a Gorgon; the extra space is currently only used for capacity and because BBT used to make large shells.

Misconception: The water warfare community is too small to make a difference.
Reality: Our water warfare community is on the smaller side, but as most know, we are having effect in the creation of stock water blaster weaponry. Now, many members may feel that changes are not enough or happen too slowly. However, the group should really be truly appreciative of the opportunities presented and understand that some changes, while they may seem simple to make from a modder/homemade-builder view, are not so simple to do when it comes to mass manufacturing a water blaster. The number of considerations that go in every water blaster design are far more than I am willing to go into and I know I would not be able to capture all the nuances of various decisions made regarding why some things make it and others do not or are postponed. All I can say is if you really want to promote water warfare and see the creation of better stock water blasters, keep on dreaming, commenting, and for those inclined, modding and building to create your ideal water blaster. Good ideas can make their way into products; it just takes time, but never think that no one is listening and trying.


I never quite discussed this issue in this thread, odd considering how much I've brought up on it.

The whole rationale between some of the changes I want to make to how I do things, and the "assume the market will be in the pits for the foreseeable future" is all anecdotal and focused on practicality. I think the whole "community is too small to make a difference" idea comes from the fact that we're too small to make a dramatic difference; a difference that's more than BBT product improvements. The point is that we are not the market BBT needs in order to support them, which makes the fact that they listen to us all the more appreciable. However, that still doesn't change how things are going and will not bring back high-level blasters for combat. If we look from 2006 to 2013, by far the largest improvement has been to ergonomics, while some blasters have had nice performance jumps (such as the Gorgon or Vindicator). I suspect that the reason BBT hasn't continued increasing performance lately is perhaps because they want to develop a more ergonomic higher performance blaster, which the Colossus or even Colossus 2 could be a stepping stone for. Perhaps BBT has made improvements to durability/design too, but I haven't been able to judge this firsthand with the latest blasters. I'm a bit skeptical however, considering how close my Vindicator got to breaking before I reinforced a trigger arm piece. (Stiff ball valves over the years really mess things up.)

One could argue that the real problem are the CPS's themselves, and that if they weren't around anymore, we would be content with having 1HS games with BBT's and all the blasters would be balanced. This is an odd argument to say the least (odd enough that I was the only one who came up with it), and still doesn't truly solve anything nor take water warfare to another level.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby isoaker » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:37 pm

CA99 wrote:If we look from 2006 to 2013, by far the largest improvement has been to ergonomics, while some blasters have had nice performance jumps (such as the Gorgon or Vindicator). I suspect that the reason BBT hasn't continued increasing performance lately is perhaps because they want to develop a more ergonomic higher performance blaster, which the Colossus or even Colossus 2 could be a stepping stone for. Perhaps BBT has made improvements to durability/design too, but I haven't been able to judge this firsthand with the latest blasters. I'm a bit skeptical however, considering how close my Vindicator got to breaking before I reinforced a trigger arm piece. (Stiff ball valves over the years really mess things up.)

One could argue that the real problem are the CPS's themselves, and that if they weren't around anymore, we would be content with having 1HS games with BBT's and all the blasters would be balanced. This is an odd argument to say the least (odd enough that I was the only one who came up with it), and still doesn't truly solve anything nor take water warfare to another level.

The biggest reason for loss of top-level power from the blasters available by BBT is the fact that they cannot currently use Hydro Power and/or CPS-type bladders. People keep bringing up how great the SS300 is for an air-pressure-based blaster, but you also have to look at how large the PCs have to be in order to provide that type of capacity. Consider that a much more compact CPS1000 can outperform the larger SS300 thanks to the physics behind the expandable bladder. While I'd agree that the Colossus 2 was a step backwards when it comes to performance, BBT does appear to be hitting the physical limit with performance for the blaster size they are limited to (based on retailer needs and large market consumer willingness to spend on more expensive water blasters). Once the injunction is over, I think we'll see a return of better performing water blasters from them. We're in a bit of a pickle when it comes to who has the technology available and what they are (or are not) doing with it.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby HBWW » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:13 pm

I mentioned that some time ago, that with LPD design and/or the right air/water ratio, you can achieve high performance in air pressure. Of course, it also requires a lot more material, and high ratios require a lot of air pre-pumping.

That said, I still think air pressure can be experimented with. Perhaps what's needed are more pressure chambers since they provide higher surface area. Current PC designs don't seem to cut it that well, though they're not bad either.

However, I did mentioned earlier that I think that even once CPS is unencumbered by patents, BBT would still not push performance to CPS-era levels, at least if they keep using the same low-flow internals. As you mentioned several times however, using larger internals involves being unable to reuse small parts used for other blasters, whose costs can pile up, but it seems that this is what we need for things to change. (My assessment here is supported by the Vindicator, which, even though the PC to nozzle route is as efficient as possible (straight line), the flow/output is still quite limited due to the internals.)

The HydroBlitz had the right idea with a 2-finger trigger on a high flow ball valve. It just needed an actual nozzle and at least half-decent PC/reservoir capacity. Hopefully BBT can overcome the cost hurdles needed for mass production of larger internals as we move forward, but even if they don't, I'd still love to see what they come up with on CPS Water Warriors designs.

The cost prohibition also appears to be the reason why stuff breaks so easily. Valve control arms/systems tend to fail after years, as noted in the High Stress Plastic Parts thread, coupled with stiff valves that lack lube. Still, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of throwaway blasters, or blasters that have to constantly be cared for and repaired, but such is the way things are made now and it seems to be a requirement in order to profit. On one hand, you save money from making stuff last longer. On another hand, people have to buy a new one again in a few years anyway.

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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby the oncoming storm » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:35 pm

The super soaker 300 isn't working at it's full potential, with chambers that large it could power a CPS 2000 nozzle, and way outperforms CPS 1000's blasting a good 15' farther than it. and the Gorgon frame has lots of space for more improvement internally.

My studys show that air pressure guns can support nozzles rated half the water in the chamber, and that at the pressures in water guns means 10-15x settings are the best for range and that also happens to be the largest practical setting, they are still safe and can soak anyone in just a second.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby marauder » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:06 pm

CA99 wrote:The cost prohibition also appears to be the reason why stuff breaks so easily. Valve control arms/systems tend to fail after years, as noted in the High Stress Plastic Parts thread, coupled with stiff valves that lack lube. Still, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of throwaway blasters, or blasters that have to constantly be cared for and repaired, but such is the way things are made now and it seems to be a requirement in order to profit. On one hand, you save money from making stuff last longer. On another hand, people have to buy a new one again in a few years anyway.


3D printers are now able to print parts out of various metals. It's going to be several years before the average person has cost effective access to that type of technology, but I see myself scanning and printing certain internals pieces out of metal.
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Re: Common Misconceptions about Stock Water Blasters

Postby SEAL » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:14 pm

^Yes, some can print stuff out of virtually anything. I will definitely be picking one up in the future when they become more affordable. Aside from water gun parts, they can be used to print out parts for cars like Ferraris or Maseratis, which normally cost quite a lot of money (which is the only thing stopping me from buying a $1500 Maserati I found that needs some parts).
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