Max I:Overload Impressions

Discussions of all varieties of stock water guns and water blasters.
ChrisReid
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Post by ChrisReid » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:28 pm

Hannibal wrote:While the Overload has a purpose, and the nozzles and size meet it, it could have been made to shoot 40-50 feet at least and have a BIT larger PC. Those are improvements Hasbro has no excuse for not doing.

Hasbro doesn't need an "excuse." The gun's power and performance are determined by its role in the marketplace. It's already more powerful than the average Super Soaker buyer thinks they need.

And the Overload is not a weak little blaster. It's a very fine Super Soaker.




Edited By ChrisReid on 1138933797

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Hannibal
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Post by Hannibal » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:39 am

ChrisReid wrote:
Hannibal wrote:While the Overload has a purpose, and the nozzles and size meet it, it could have been made to shoot 40-50 feet at least and have a BIT larger PC. Those are improvements Hasbro has no excuse for not doing.

Hasbro doesn't need an "excuse." The gun's power and performance are determined by its role in the marketplace. It's already more powerful than the average Super Soaker buyer thinks they need.

And the Overload is not a weak little blaster. It's a very fine Super Soaker.
All right, let's see your Overload against my CPS 1700, asuming both users are of equal skill. The Overload has no chance. The 1700 holds just as much water as the Overload, and has much better nozzles and range, and a PC 3x as big. And then, put the Overload against the 3200. My brother's 3200 has a PC 3x as big, gets longer range, better nozzles, and almost 3x the water in the backpack. The Overload is a squirt pistol compared to the 3200. It has no chance. And the Overload is the "best" of 2006.

I have due right to compare the Overload to past guns because Hasbro is capable of making them, but they aren't willing to. An SS 300 would beat the Overload, and it was made 13 years ago. Do you call that progress? Not in the least.
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"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
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isoaker
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Post by isoaker » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:37 pm

@Hannibal: you're actually missing the point of ChrisReid's post. He has never stated that the Overload is more powerful, rather that for many water fight users, the Overload's output will do perfectly fine.

For a variety of reasons, the current market cannot support the profitable manufacturing and sale of larger blasters. I wouldn't say they (Hasbro, Buzz Bee Toys, or any other manufacturer) can't or don't want to make large, powerful blasters. If retailers won't distribute and relative sales are low, there is no profitability. The current manufacturers are testing the market these days to see what really sells and what doesn't. The membership here like talking about how 'well' the bigger blasters sell, but comparatively, the numbers of large blasters sold versus small can be quite surprising. All the talk about 'so many [insert smaller blaster name] left on the shelves' is actually more because so much more stock of smaller blasters were bought and sold.

Manufacturers can make more powerful blasters, but they would cost much more. In a price-driven market, unless there is a lot of demand, the more reasonably priced soakers sell better. Presently, the market does not work well for blasters costing more than $20USD. As stores can pack more smaller blasters on a shelf than larger ones, it makes sense why stores prefer selling smaller-sized soakers. Manufacturers can propose larger models, but if no retailer is willing to carry it, it will never be seen in stores.

Getting back to the other point, while many of us (myself, included) love the powerful blasts that can drench an opponent in a blink or two, that level of power is typically not desired by the average water fight player. From what I've seen of friends and acquaintances that aren't really into soaking, but enjoy water fights, almost any water blaster that can shoot at least 25' is acceptable for the casual soaker combat (I can hear some of the modders and homemade builders laughing already :goofy:). Big blasters are impressive to them, but they don't seek those out as many find them too heavy or bulky. Having had fights with a large range of people of different experience levels, the most preferred blaster tended to by something around the size of an XP310/XP150/Max-D6000. The CPS1000/1200 was liked by more males than females, but few actually sought after using big cannons like the CPS2500 for fear of being too indimidating, unfair, or being ganged up on because they had the biggest gun. Blasters like the 2006 Overload actually fit quite well, IMO, with the current desire of the casual soaker user.

This isn't to say I wouldn't want to see the return of larger soakers. However, we (Soakerdom members) are a niche market. I'm spending my time (apart from work/life/and soaker reviews) trying to get as many people as I can into general soaking so that perhaps, after a few rounds, they, too, will start wanting bigger, more powerful blasters. If more people wanted them, they would return. Complaining without positive action will not yield the results we are looking for.

:cool:
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Hannibal
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Post by Hannibal » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:50 pm

isoaker_com wrote:@Hannibal: you're actually missing the point of ChrisReid's post. He has never stated that the Overload is more powerful, rather that for many water fight users, the Overload's output will do perfectly fine.

For a variety of reasons, the current market cannot support the profitable manufacturing and sale of larger blasters. I wouldn't say they (Hasbro, Buzz Bee Toys, or any other manufacturer) can't or don't want to make large, powerful blasters. If retailers won't distribute and relative sales are low, there is no profitability. The current manufacturers are testing the market these days to see what really sells and what doesn't. The membership here like talking about how 'well' the bigger blasters sell, but comparatively, the numbers of large blasters sold versus small can be quite surprising. All the talk about 'so many [insert smaller blaster name] left on the shelves' is actually more because so much more stock of smaller blasters were bought and sold.

Manufacturers can make more powerful blasters, but they would cost much more. In a price-driven market, unless there is a lot of demand, the more reasonably priced soakers sell better. Presently, the market does not work well for blasters costing more than $20USD. As stores can pack more smaller blasters on a shelf than larger ones, it makes sense why stores prefer selling smaller-sized soakers. Manufacturers can propose larger models, but if no retailer is willing to carry it, it will never be seen in stores.

Getting back to the other point, while many of us (myself, included) love the powerful blasts that can drench an opponent in a blink or two, that level of power is typically not desired by the average water fight player. From what I've seen of friends and acquaintances that aren't really into soaking, but enjoy water fights, almost any water blaster that can shoot at least 25' is acceptable for the casual soaker combat (I can hear some of the modders and homemade builders laughing already :goofy:). Big blasters are impressive to them, but they don't seek those out as many find them too heavy or bulky. Having had fights with a large range of people of different experience levels, the most preferred blaster tended to by something around the size of an XP310/XP150/Max-D6000. The CPS1000/1200 was liked by more males than females, but few actually sought after using big cannons like the CPS2500 for fear of being too indimidating, unfair, or being ganged up on because they had the biggest gun. Blasters like the 2006 Overload actually fit quite well, IMO, with the current desire of the casual soaker user.

This isn't to say I wouldn't want to see the return of larger soakers. However, we (Soakerdom members) are a niche market. I'm spending my time (apart from work/life/and soaker reviews) trying to get as many people as I can into general soaking so that perhaps, after a few rounds, they, too, will start wanting bigger, more powerful blasters. If more people wanted them, they would return. Complaining without positive action will not yield the results we are looking for.

:cool:
Heh. Sorry about my little outburst. :goofy: I know exactly what you mean. I think I'll buy up a bunch of WW guns and have fights in my neighborhood. Doesn't BB offer better value for the soaker, besides having a trigger that lasts? But I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a gun on the level of the 2500. I still am disapointed that a $30 soaker isn't as good as a $20 one. (I.E. the 1000/1200/2100)
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:26 pm

BBT is going in the right direction by making a better product, for a better price. From what I hear the Blazer is just as good as the cps 1000 for a similar price point, and if the scorpion is a sucess we will see better guns. I see more and more BBT guns and less soakertags on the battle field, so things may be starting to catch on. Bigger blasters will return especially with the expected range improvement for 2007. My prediction is by 2009 if demand is high enough you will see cps 1500/2500 caliber guns but by then mods and homemades will be so powerful why go back.


Anyway we have modding we have homemades, if you want more power do those. Otherwise no more complaining about bad stock soakers.


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Post by Hannibal » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:42 pm

LIGHT ANNIHILATOR wrote:BBT is going in the right direction by making a better product, for a better price. From what I hear the Blazer is just as good as the cps 1000 for a similar price point, and if the scorpion is a sucess we will see better guns. I see more and more BBT guns and less soakertags on the battle field, so things may be starting to catch on. Bigger blasters will return especially with the expected range improvement for 2007. My prediction is by 2009 if demand is high enough you will see cps 1500/2500 caliber guns but by then mods and homemades will be so powerful why go back.


Anyway we have modding we have homemades, if you want more power do those. Otherwise no more complaining about bad stock soakers.


:soakon:
I'm looking forward to those days in the future. I'm the person who's too lazy/scared to investigate homemades/modded guns, but I'm willing to pay $80 for an above average stock gun (like my 2000).
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by DX » Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:49 pm

My prediction is by 2009 if demand is high enough you will see cps 1500/2500 caliber guns but by then mods and homemades will be so powerful why go back.


Mods and homemades are already powerful enough that very few do turn back. I myself used to be satisfied with my 4100 and 2100 way back when. Now look where I have progressed to in the last year and a half. The basement is like a small hardware store, with my own considerable stash of PVC pipe and fittings. :laugh:
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Post by ZOCCOZ » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:28 pm

Hannibal wrote:I think I'll buy up a bunch of WW guns and have fights in my neighborhood. Doesn't BB offer better value for the soaker, besides having a trigger that lasts? But I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a gun on the level of the 2500. I still am disapointed that a $30 soaker isn't as good as a $20 one. (I.E. the 1000/1200/2100)

The Blazer is still the best new soaker since 2003. And they were only $19.99 CAN at my local wallmart. Unfurtunaty they didn't sell very high on ebay($20 US) when I sold them 2004 . The power might not be up there with the CPS1000/1200/2100, but with an average of 40 feet, its prity good compared to the last years models from Hasbro.
Personaly, I would say Buzz Bee Toys dropped the ball somewhat by not elaborating on their diaphram tech. Just simply remove the electronics and add another PC chamber, then it would have better performance(probably surpassing CPS1000 in power) and still remaining low production costs and retail price.

As for consumer demand, statisticaly people will buy anything if its marketed right. Thats why SS quality is now so stagnant. They found out whats good enough for the comercial pon.
Luckely BigBee tries to balance buisness with personal watergun enthusiasm.(according to what he once said 2004 at WWN).

[edit]:
Now having said that, if I would have a water gun company, there would be 2 possibilities:

Option 1: Fill squirt guns and basic Airpressure soakers with fancy gimmicks and promote them as the best there is just to prove my point how extremly dumb consumers are.
Using the profits to buy an island with a holow vulcano and about 500 henchmen.

Option 2: Give every AirPresure model a 3-5 Litre PC with a cool coloured Scifi Design, dominating every model on the current market, while keeping legaly out of trouble by labeling "not without adult supervision/not recomended for children under 12/never shoot at face or animals" on every soaker. And of course still promoting it as the best there is, but this time meaning it.
Using the the profits partialy on marketing to increase further sales.




Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1139017882

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Hannibal
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:45 am

ZOCCOZ wrote:
Hannibal wrote:I think I'll buy up a bunch of WW guns and have fights in my neighborhood. Doesn't BB offer better value for the soaker, besides having a trigger that lasts? But I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a gun on the level of the 2500. I still am disapointed that a $30 soaker isn't as good as a $20 one. (I.E. the 1000/1200/2100)

The Blazer is still the best new soaker since 2003. And they were only $19.99 CAN at my local wallmart. Unfurtunaty they didn't sell very high on ebay($20 US) when I sold them 2004 . The power might not be up there with the CPS1000/1200/2100, but with an average of 40 feet, its prity good compared to the last years models from Hasbro.
Personaly, I would say Buzz Bee Toys dropped the ball somewhat by not elaborating on their diaphram tech. Just simply remove the electronics and add another PC chamber, then it would have better performance(probably surpassing CPS1000 in power) and still remaining low production costs and retail price.

As for consumer demand, statisticaly people will buy anything if its marketed right. Thats why SS quality is now so stagnant. They found out whats good enough for the comercial pon.
Luckely BigBee tries to balance buisness with personal watergun enthusiasm.(according to what he once said 2004 at WWN).

[edit]:
Now having said that, if I would have a water gun company, there would be 2 possibilities:

Option 1: Fill squirt guns and basic Airpressure soakers with fancy gimmicks and promote them as the best there is just to prove my point how extremly dumb consumers are.
Using the profits to buy an island with a holow vulcano and about 500 henchmen.

Option 2: Give every AirPresure model a 3-5 Litre PC with a cool coloured Scifi Design, dominating every model on the current market, while keeping legaly out of trouble by labeling "not without adult supervision/not recomended for children under 12/never shoot at face or animals" on every soaker. And of course still promoting it as the best there is, but this time meaning it.
Using the the profits partialy on marketing to increase further sales.
AHAHAHA! That last part was hilarious. :D I totally agree and have thought the same before myself. Hasbro is going the first way. Who wants a private island? :laugh:
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by cooldood31 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:25 pm

So, D.A., let me translate:
Option 1: Fill squirt guns and basic Airpressure soakers with fancy gimmicks and market them for children like the TOYS are meant to be, and let the KIDS have FUN with soakers. Let soakerdom grow through kids coming into soaking through underpowered guns, an some of them growing up and getting into modding and/or homemades, or just being happy and bringing more little kids in.

Option 2: hold soakers over their heads until they're 12, at which point they might have already lost interest, and none of the current 12 year olds want to play with soakers because they're worried about getting knocked over or shot in the face by a 50x blast, and soakerdom dies completely.

I remember getting my first soaker. It was a ss50. I didn't care that it had less power than a bucket of water or a water balloon, it was just fun to run around with my friends and shoot eachother with waterguns. You people don't realise that kids, who soakers are made for, don't care about how much power their soaker has, they just want to have fun.

SOAKERS ARE MEANT FOR KIDS. GET OVER IT OR GET A NEW HOBBY.

edit: spelling




Edited By cooldood31 on 1139077647

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Hannibal
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:47 pm

cooldood31 wrote:So, D.A., let me translate:
Option 1: Fill squirt guns and basic Airpressure soakers with fancy gimmicks and market them for children like the TOYS are meant to be, and let the KIDS have FUN with soakers. Let soakerdom grow through kids coming into soaking through underpowered guns, an some of them growing up and getting into modding and/or homemades, or just being happy and bringing more little kids in.

Option 2: hold soakers over their heads until they're 12, at which point they might have already lost interest, and none of the current 12 year olds want to play with soakers because they're worried about getting knocked over or shot in the face by a 50x blast, and soakerdom dies completely.

I remember getting my first soaker. It was a ss50. I didn't care that it had less power than a bucket of water or a water balloon, it was just fun to run around with my friends and shoot eachother with waterguns. You people don't realise that kids, who soakers are made for, don't care about how much power their soaker has, they just want to have fun.

SOAKERS ARE MEANT FOR KIDS. GET OVER IT OR GET A NEW HOBBY.

edit: spelling
Adults like them too, my dad has shown some interest. My mom tolerates them. :goofy:

Teens do use them, show interest, and want power, unlike little kids. Cooldood, are you 12 and under? Use your kiddie soakers. :D I'll use my CPS 2000 and be satisfied with the power, while looking for more power in the future.

On the Overload: there are 4 categories of people that will get this soaker.

1: The people who want "power" beyond their current armory, or want a "powerful" soaker to start with. (The overwhelming majority of people.)

2. People who know the gun is weak, and recognize it for what it is, and still get it. (Many on the online community, and probably a few others.)

3. People who want to own every soaker ever made. (i.e. iSoaker and Chris Reid)

4. People (like me) who want to mod the connection so it will fit on older CPS/other soakers.

So, overall the gun will be successful. It's sad, but true. :(
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by Soaker Master » Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:51 pm

I think that the will be Max Infusion Overload is a great gun and I also think that the Max Infusion Aqua Pack will be pretty good with another Max Infusion. I plan to blow My money on Hasbros waterguns this Summer.:) :cool: :soakon2: :bringiton:



Edited By Soaker Master on 1139079233

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cooldood31
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Post by cooldood31 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:19 pm

Haha. Funny hanibal. I'm just saying that soakerdom (I wonder how that word got started anyways) will not grow if companies started putting 12+ stickers on waterguns, due to the FACT that the largest market for soakers is children 12 and under. Yes I do use smaller, less powerfull soakers, for the reasons I've stated previously in this thread, and the reasons I've stated in our discussion through personal messages.

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Post by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:11 pm

cooldood31 wrote:SOAKERS ARE MEANT FOR KIDS. GET OVER IT OR GET A NEW HOBBY.

Modding is there for those of us who want more power. SO STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT OUR ARMORIES AND STOP TRYING TO GET US TO GIVE UP MODDING. IF YOU WANT TO USE CRAPPY SOAKERTAGS THAN THAT'S FINE WITH ME. :angry:]


AND THAT SIGNATURE DOESN'T HELP THE SITUATION :angry:




Edited By LIGHT ANNIHILATOR on 1139087938
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Post by m15399 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:24 pm

Cooldood, are you 12 and under? Use your kiddie soakers.

That was SO close to flaming... And even if it wasn't it was downright mean.

I know I'm not a mod, but this is WAY off topic (iSoaker has already said that). Hannibal and LA, if you look at cooldood's posts, it is clear he is fine with the way soakers are right now and is not going to change his mind about that. I'm fine with the way soakers are, too. I don't care what kind of soaker I'm using as long as I'm having fun. I prefer more powerful blasters, but that doesn't make short range soakfests less fun. If you don't like the current soakers, get out of your chair and build a homemade!!! Posting at a forum isn't going to make the soakers get any better.

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Post by cooldood31 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:26 pm

WTF? I wasn't complaining about your arenals, or trying to stop you from modding (I've modded some soakers too). I'm just trying to say that soakerdom wouldn't work if 12+ stickers were on everything, and backing that and my choice of using smaller soakers. Quit twisting my words. I don't see how you got that out of what I said, and I'm curious to know from which of my posts you got the idea that I'm trying to stop other people from modding or using larger soakers.

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Post by DX » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:04 pm

Guys, please don't use caps and don't trade insults either. You're starting a flame war over nothing.

Soakerdom is a loose phrase. Companies moving in either direction [towards the young ages or towards the older] both hurt some wing of soakerdom. These "wings" can also function independently of each other, like if hardcore wars advanced or started dying out, it would have no real effect on childrens' wars whatsoever. So this whole argument is pointless, because our independent styles cannot overlap or force changes in either one's favor. I play my wars hardcore, you prefer to keep it simple. That is non-negotiable or changable in argument, and nothing good can come of it. Kind of like most political arguments, where no matter what is said, people's opinions won't be easily swayed. So just respect each other's opinions, or at least fake it well. :p




Edited By Duxburian on 1139090704
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Post by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:56 pm

^^^

Alright fine let's just shut up and wait for the review. :cool:
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:01 pm

cooldood31 wrote:Haha. Funny hanibal. I'm just saying that soakerdom (I wonder how that word got started anyways) will not grow if companies started putting 12+ stickers on waterguns, due to the FACT that the largest market for soakers is children 12 and under. Yes I do use smaller, less powerfull soakers, for the reasons I've stated previously in this thread, and the reasons I've stated in our discussion through personal messages.
Hey. I totally agree that low-power wars can be fun. I was just teasing, I hope I made that clear. :D It seems though that you don't want power. Even Dux would want power, whether he knows it or not, so he can have better guns to mod. A balance of low and high-powered soakers is what the market really needs. The Overload is on the low-powered side.
EV Nova - Space action/RPG, for Windows and Mac!
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

"Look! a CPS 2000 10th anniversary edition! I'll buy two, one to keep, and one to use!"
*Takes them home, opens one, fills it, and pumps it up.*

"snap!"

"Oops, I guess it had a Max-D trigger."

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Post by cooldood31 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:21 pm

It's not that I don't want power, I mean it would be awesome to have more power in smaller packages, but if companies continue to target lower age groups, I'm fine with that.

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