Buzz Bee Toys/Water Warriors - News, Suggestions and Other Info

Discussions of all varieties of stock water guns and water blasters.
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isoaker
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Post by isoaker » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:54 pm

Well, it's been awhile since this thread was last touched. At any rate, it's also recently the first time I've had a chance to try out the new Aqua Master Pre-Charge system that others in New Zealand and Australia have been playing with for some time now.

I'd most definitely have to agree with earlier reports of really tough pumping when pre-charged. I've only tried the Krypton, so far, but found pumping to be too stiff when pre-charged. While the stream power was good, the stiffness in pumping makes the blaster's overall performance drop. As well, the firing chamber on the Krypton is rather small for a blaster of this size. Sure, it takes only 3 pumps to fully pressurize it, but those are three very tiring pumps. A smaller pump volume, while increasing the total number of pumps required to reach max, would still be preferred since short, easy, fast pumps are what most are used to. I think the idea behind the pre-charge system is great. Overall stream consistency and performance are better than that of standard air-pressure chambers (though still not quite as good as CPS or Hydropower chambers). Just needs some bugs ironed out.

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Post by emperor_james » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:43 pm

I have a question: although my Blazer can perform just as well as my CPS 3200 on the largest nozzle (the Blazer's largest nozzle), it necessary to first pre-pump the Blazer quite a before it can even approach the 3200. So, why don't you just put a more powerful spring in the Blazer? It would make it a lot simpler, and make the stream more consistent. And, if the guns would work with a more powerful spring, then perhaps it would be possible to make interchangeable springs, like in airsoft guns. Indeed, the "hydropower" technology is very similar to the way airsoft guns work, and could possibly open the door for new types of weaponry. (I'm thinking of stuff like single shot sniper rifles etc.) :cps2000:
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:09 am

^ There is no spring in the Blazer's PC. :;):

There is the "spring modification" which involves adding a spring to the PC, but the only person who tried it was disappointed.

HydroPower PCs from what I know use the same rubber-stretching to get power that normal CPS PCs do, just in a different way (and an inferior way in my opinion). You could ask for thicker rubber.

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Post by emperor_james » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:35 am

Oh. I didn't realize that. Hmmm... I wonder where I got that idea.
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Post by Hyperion330 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:12 pm

Extensions to the Hydro Power/diaphragm series of Buzz Bee's (i.e. more variety, general output/range improvements, etc.) would be something to look forward to. While there is a theoretical $20 cap on the price the normal consumer (not the water gun enthusiast) would pay, in theory, the guns don't have to be that big...

Buzz Bee could offer strong competition to Hasbro's Flash Flood. I think a large pistol-sized soaker, probably smaller than that of the Flash Flood, could very well deliver compatible power. While diaphragm technology does unfortunately reduce laminar flow, as Doom said, it could very well defeat Hasbro's soakers' mediocre range. That, and it could sell for or below $20. I noticed the Pirahna sold for about $15 at the local K-Mart (don't quote me on that), so this does not seem unreasonable. Perhaps it'd put the pressure on Hasbro (if they care, of course) to start listening to us or at least take greater measures to make better soakers.

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Post by hunter » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:30 pm

yes, but they should build guns for $20 bigger than the FF, if not a lot more powerful, that will atract more people. You know how n00bs always think 'bigger is better' maybe a diaphragm with a backpack reservoir....
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:49 pm

While diaphragm technology does unfortunately reduce laminar flow, as Doom said, it could very well defeat Hasbro's soakers' mediocre range.


Anything could beat the current range in water guns! The companies know what they are doing and know how to get better range. You could do a lot to that design still, such as make the rubber thicker. (However, I find it extremely unlikely that we'll actually see a water gun designed especially for us other than homemades.)

Simply put, anyone can make a very usable water gun that shoots 50 or more feet if they know basic water gun physics. Problem is, you shouldn't "waste money" on things most don't care about to make a water gun sell.

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Post by emperor_james » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:58 pm

So, then, why not take a gun like, say the Blazer, and just put a thicker firing chamber? Sure, it would be more difficult to pump, but then the Blazer seems to have a low pump volume anyway. It is doubtful that a thicker firing chamber would make it that much more expensive. Or would it? Whatever the case, it seems like there are more problems than the market wanting cheap soakers.

edit: Okay, yesterday I actually used the Blazer in a little game. Emphasis on little, I had a couple of people over after our tennis game and we got in a water fight after I shot one of them with a spray bottle :)

Anyway, I handed out some soakers, a CPS 3200, a CPS 2100, a CPS 4100, and kept my Blazer (V2 Blazer BTW). Also we had a couple of XP 220s as sidearms.

Anyway, though it was probably the weakest main weapon there, I found the Blazer rather useful. It was most like the CPS 2100. The main problem was that I had to pump it about 100 times before filling for it to perform anywhere near the CPS guns. The blast spread quite a bit on the largest nozzle, in a seemingly ideal shotgun spray. The most useful nozzle by far, however, was the second largest, which still spread a lot, but conserved pressurized water well. The power was mediocre, less than all the other guns. Shot time wasn't great, perhaps because there was all that air in the chambers. Also, I had to be careful not to let too much air out when firing. The air pressure did empty out only when most of the water was gone, thankfully. The range was the main reason I was not completely outgunned in the game. The Blazer has awesome range, despite the spread, quite a bit longer than the other guns, which gave me a noticeable edge at long distances. The gun's reservoir is not too good. It is very ewasy to drain the gun, especially after pre-pressuring. Eventually, it was decided that I could have the Flash Flood as a backup, and the CPS 2100 guy could have the Aquapack Devastator. Both of those guns were ridiculously outclassed, of course, but they were better than XP 220s.

One very good thing about the gun was the exterior functionality. The gun was quite comfortable to hold, and the pump slid nicely on its track. Th stap seemed much sturdier than the CPS gun straps, particularly the clips. The pressure guage was rather annoying, so I took the batteries out.

The general feeling at the end of this game was that the guy with the 3200 won, although no scores were kept and we were all completely soaked.

My general impression of the gun was that it was okay, but could be much better. It took a lot of effort to keep up even with the CPS 2100. Here is a list of things that could be done to improve the Blazer:
-more powerful firing chamber*
-larger firing chamber
-regular pressure guage
-larger pump volume
While some of those are quite general, I believe that they would improve the gun without substantially increasing the cost or size. Not that increasing the price and size are a particularly bad thing, but that does not seem to be the direction that soakers are going at this time.

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Post by Big Bee » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:32 pm

IF it was pumped 200 times before filling I'm suprised it worked at all. Any way, using the diaphram guns a couple of times at first will improve performance as the rubber gets "stretched" into shape. As for making one shoot farther, well, we already discussed this. There are safety considerations when products are being sold in toy departments instead of Sports or Hobbies.

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Post by emperor_james » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:31 pm

Well, I don't know about pumping 200 times, but with pumping about 40 (100 was quite an exageration, actually) its performance did improve incredibly. I do see what you mean, about limiting the power, but it seems like power can be easily increased without increasing the size or cost much, and it also doesn't seem like it would hurt someone too badly to increase the Blazer's power a little bit. But then, I suppose that is what modding is for, isn't it?
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Post by ANNIHILATOR 2 » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:29 am

Big Bee wrote:IF it was pumped 200 times before filling I'm suprised it worked at all. Any way, using the diaphram guns a couple of times at first will improve performance as the rubber gets "stretched" into shape. As for making one shoot farther, well, we already discussed this. There are safety considerations when products are being sold in toy departments instead of Sports or Hobbies.

:blazer:
I always wondered. Is there a gereral set PSI number that one can not go beyond according to Toy safety regulations? Or is it more of a grey zone?
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Post by rinkydinkysplat » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:18 pm

is the hydra pack a diaphragm gun? also, will buzz bee toys ever make a a super charger-style PUMPLESS backpack gun? cause that would be AWESOME!!!

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Post by LtDan64 » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:52 pm

ANNIHILATOR 2 wrote: I always wondered. Is there a gereral set PSI number that one can not go beyond according to Toy safety regulations? Or is it more of a grey zone?

Wow, excellent question. Anybody know where to find an answer to something like that?
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Post by emperor_james » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:33 pm

I dont know about a max psi, but I don't want a gun that is like 500000 joules. Its not like I have to put my CPS 3200 in a gun safe, it doesn't even borderline as a dangerous weapon. So, why not make a Hydro Power gun that is as powerful as the Super Soaker CPS series? Or did they get a lot of lawsuits about them?
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Post by isoaker » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:35 am

Some Background Info on Safety

And some US Safety standard links for toys (not quite, but potentially related): F963

I looked up safety standards for "TOY AND GUN" on that website as well, but the documents there discuss non-powder guns a.k.a. pellet or BB guns and doesn't seem to quite be intended for use when judging water guns.

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Post by Soakologist » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:20 pm

Big Bee wrote:IF it was pumped 200 times before filling I'm suprised it worked at all. Any way, using the diaphram guns a couple of times at first will improve performance as the rubber gets "stretched" into shape. As for making one shoot farther, well, we already discussed this. There are safety considerations when products are being sold in toy departments instead of Sports or Hobbies.

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What prevents you from selling water guns in the sporting goods section, with the paintball and airsoft guns?

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Post by Hyperion330 » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:45 pm

I'll assume it's because soakers aren't as popular as either of those, and because most don't consider soakers as a sport. More like a passing hobby. There are always a select few, however...

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EDIT: Darn it! I keep typing "are" instead of "aren't."

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Post by DX » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:40 pm

I dont know about a max psi, but I don't want a gun that is like 500000 joules


BTW joules are a unit of heat energy, not pressure. And 500,000 J is not a lot of heat energy. It takes more than that to boil a pot of water. Anyway, the problem today is that you can sue for anything. Oh, is that coffee too hot? Sue them. Oh, is there a "risk" with that soaker, even though/just because someone acted stupidly with it? Sue them. People are going WAY overboard with all this safety stuff these days. If there is a psi limit, it better not be too unreasonable. 20 psi is roughly the cap in commercially manufactured soakers, but I have no idea whether there is a regulation.
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Post by marauder » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:25 am

Hyperion330 wrote:Perhaps it'd put the pressure on Hasbro (if they care, of course) to start listening to us or at least take greater measures to make better soakers.
I'd say the 2005 lineup shows they've been listening to us.
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Post by Iceman » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:07 pm

marauder_4 wrote:
Hyperion330 wrote:Perhaps it'd put the pressure on Hasbro (if they care, of course) to start listening to us or at least take greater measures to make better soakers.

I'd say the 2005 lineup shows they've been listening to us.

Couldn't agree with you more M4. As I have said all along since the beginning of 2005, Hasbro reads the forums in soakerdom for general ideas on what people may like with water guns. Of course they spend tons of money for an engineering team, but the inspiration has to start somewhere. It starts looking at the sales and designs of last year, and it also starts with ideas from Soakerdom. They are listening to us, period. There is no way around it. If Hasbro could make everyone happy, I am sure they would.




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