"Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:50 am

I agree with DX on modded guns, but only because pretty much nobody ever mods their light blasters into anything-goes-worthy primaries. I'm not sure about my 6000 though; I'd say it sort of falls in between the light class and anything goes. If we are going to count it in the light class......well, you know what I will be using (just as soon as I can find a stronger spring!).

The Vanquisher is actually pretty good; range is around 40' with excellent lamination, even though the output isn't that high. My brother "chief" did very well with it in the BBT rounds at MOAB. If we aren't restricting mods, I'd probably ban it simply because with a K-mod and a good nozzle mod, I can easily see it being competitive in anything-goes (Vindicator level at the very least). I have the same thoughts about the Hydro Cannon. And what about a nozzle modded FF/AB/IM like marauder has? I'm not sure about the Splashzooka either; it's probably similar to the SC 600, but it could probably be modded into a beast. Just look at the size of the bladder!

The idea with Stream Machines (or similar blasters) is that you'd use them with another blaster for backup. That way once you fire your glory shot (er, don't take that the wrong way please...), you can still hold off your opponents long enough to refill it. They're also extremely deadly for hit-and-run attacks; marauder's cousin Will did that to us in the Thunder Gulch rounds (where we were using small-CPS or lower), and it was pretty effective. For this reason I agree with DX in that we should definitely ban them. Maybe we could include the really small ones (like the TL-500 and maybe the 600) if their performance is lower (I don't know because I've never had experience with them).

Though once again, I will say that trial-and-error is necessary here. If a certain blaster starts demolishing everyone on the field while being wielded by a newbie, we know to exclude it in the future.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:37 am

The problem with not defining rules for mods is that some mods are so far-removed from the original. I think we've established that internals have to stay stock, although we could extend that to include the reservoir as well. PC mods however, throw things off so much. If we have to ban something just because it could be unfair if modded, that's a problem.

I'm pretty sure that the Stream Machine I have is the TL-600, and the one you have is TL-750. I suppose we could experiment here and see, because I've never attempted them at all in combat before. (I will experiment this Saturday for a local war I'm hosting.) However, I will need some way of refilling it easily while mobile; if I run 1HK games, I can simply refill from a backpack between rounds, but if I'm playing 1HS I will only be able to do so when eliminated. That said, a Stream Machine takes a lot of good timing, skill, and practice in order to even get that "glory shot". (Kind of like, you know.)

Speaking of which, I think that's a good convention to establish: refilling when eliminated for 1HS. It's fair and gives you choice. The limitation is that you cannot reserve any caches on the field; anything left on field can be used by anyone who stumbles upon it so refills have to be carried.

For mods, I'm going to throw one thing up in the air to debate: PC mods. The options being manual approval, ban, or allow for the light blasters game. A PC and nozzle mod for the FF/AB/IM2 could definitely be overpowered, basically giving it the performance of a small or medium CPS. Throw on a backpack (which you don't even need a mod to do, just use an Aquapack) and you have the field life of said CPS. If we're going to allow the FF/AB/IM2, we definitely need to ban PC mods for them especially if they are accompanied with an Aquapack.

Perhaps the best approach is manual approval of all mods except any nozzle mod that doesn't require additional parts. Nozzle mods that do can be debated; we can allow them or put them on a manual approval basis. I don't want to shut out Marauder's Arctic Blast mod (although it looks to be reversible), but I also don't know how powerful it is: it may not even be as effective as it seems. As for the HydroCannon, I'd permit any nozzle mod so long as everything else remains stock.

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby marauder » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:32 pm

CA99 wrote:Perhaps the best approach is manual approval of all mods except any nozzle mod that doesn't require additional parts. Nozzle mods that do can be debated; we can allow them or put them on a manual approval basis. I don't want to shut out Marauder's Arctic Blast mod (although it looks to be reversible), but I also don't know how powerful it is: it may not even be as effective as it seems. As for the HydroCannon, I'd permit any nozzle mod so long as everything else remains stock.


I agree with this. Our community wars are small enough to where we can manually approve each mod if there is question. I don't have that Arctic Blast anymore, so no worries about that.

I don't think we should let people get a free refill if they are hit in 1hs. Refilling under fire adds a whole new dimension to the game, one that I'd like to see more of. I enjoyed that part of Thunder Gulch '11, especially when I was filming, since that was the longer round.

Pretty sure this won't have much affect on Downpour since it looks like y'all won't be doing any light primary rounds, but this could have an affect on Frozen Fury, and I can't wait for that.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 am

Actually we will be doing a few light primary rounds this weekend. I don't want to do too many, but there will still be some. I too agree that we can just manually approve of any mods, though how many people actually mod light blasters anyway?

I've seen people actually refill while respawning in OHS, haha. They just extend their respawn time, because while you can't respawn faster than the time limit, there's no rule that says you can't take longer than the time limit.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:01 am

The problem with prolonging your spawn time is that the battle could move to where you are spawning behind enemy lines or claiming that a hit didn't count cause they where still spawning. Not a problem unless someones friend uses it as a way of cheating.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:57 pm

SEAL wrote:I've seen people actually refill while respawning in OHS, haha. They just extend their respawn time, because while you can't respawn faster than the time limit, there's no rule that says you can't take longer than the time limit.


This. We can enforce the minimum spawn time, but forcing players to spawn when their time is up can lead to issues if they are in a bad spot. I don't suppose we need more honor-based rules than we already have. Also, it doesn't make any sense to enter a standard game with no, or almost no ammo.

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby DX » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:34 am

Alright, so let's revive this discussion. I think going forward, in future community wars, there should only be 3 classes of guns used: Anything goes, medium primaries, and light primaries. Our previous discussion kind of blurs the line between medium and light. I think the guns that were questionable earlier should be classed up to medium. So, that would kick things like the 1-3-5, Vanquisher, and 275 into medium.

As mentioned before, I think light primaries should be classed mainly by size, with performance considerations only if it would be obviously better suited to the medium primary class. This would allow for deviations in performance when modded, encouraging us to mod things we usually wouldn't and finding new advantages in the available soakers. Different levels of performance would also inject variety into the rounds, so it doesn't become an automatic standoff due to every gun having the same strengths and weaknesses. Jury is still out on PC replacement, though. I don't mind allowing Seal's 6000, but if everyone does that, it's not really light primaries anymore. Unlike K-modding, which is a double edged sword (higher range, higher output, shorter shot time, worse lamination), replacing AP PCs doesn't really introduce new weaknesses...ultimately whatever you guys want to do is what we'll do (especially what Scott wants since the next use of light primaries will all but certainly be at this year's Soakemore).

As for homemades, if you can make one comparable in size to a Colossus or XP 150, I have no problem with it regardless of performance. Having made one (APR 2000) about that small in the past, I can say that it's not likely to be overpowered. The small design space ensures pretty low capacity and shot time. This assumes, however, that only onboard reservoirs are allowed. If you can have backpacks, you can make a huge PC in a small blaster and then it's a full power homemade.

For syringe style stuff like Stream Machines, I think the smaller version could work. The larger version would be classed up to at least medium if not a full primary.

So here is a proposal for light primaries:

Blacklist:
. anything using CPS or Hydro Power
. anything classed as medium or higher

Whitelist:
. WW Charger, Colossus, Colossus 2, Python, Python 2, Equalizer/Outlaw, Ultimate Outlaw, Renegade, Ultimate Renegade, Ultimate Vanquisher (not regular Vanquisher), and down
. XP 150, 310, 270, 110, 105, and down
. XXP 175
. SS 60/MDS, 50, and down
. SC 500, 400
. MD 6000 and down
. SS Overload and down (can list more but who would use these)
. Anything classed as a pistol
. Any Nerf Super Soaker other than the Hydrocannon
. Any syringe gun comparable in size to a Stream Machine TL 600
. Any onboard reservoir, non-CPS homemade comparable in size to the largest allowed gun in this class (excluding NSS). I don't actually know what the largest light primary is, otherwise I'd just say as large as that.

Up for debate:
. SS 200
. SC 600
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:01 pm

I'd still prefer to class 'em by overall power, because there are big guns that are quite weak, and fairly powerful small guns.

Actually, I really don't have much to say about this. I don't have a problem with any of the guns you listed. As for the debatable ones, I'd say the SS 200 should definitely count. As far as I know, it's no more powerful than like a 150. If the SC 600 is as powerful as a Splashzooka (which is banned, right?), then I'd say it belongs in the medium class. Can't say I'm too fond of having a "medium class" though. Like, who'd use anything besides 1000s/1200s/2100s and the occasional Vindicator or Gorgon?

I'd actually prefer it if there weren't any classes at all, and people just used the best at their disposal, but unfortunately that doesn't really work well with our current situation.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:25 pm

I to class weapons by power multiply range by output (imperial) and if the total is 120 or under it is a light primary 121-339 medium and 340 up is heavy (do I really need to define water cannons)
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby DX » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:13 pm

So by your definition, a Defender with a nozzle drill wouldn't be a light primary despite being the size of a large pistol?
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:32 am

I have no idea where you defender falls on the class system I made but a "light primary" can't exceed 3oz/s and hit 40" (less range would allow more output) XP class riot blast only rank a 70 or less.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby marauder » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:24 am

I still think the Defender would fit, because with the nozzle drill it ends up losing shot time and overall field life. Yeah, it's shooting about 2.5x or 3x, and yeah it can hit 40 ft, maybe just maybe 42, but it's tiny. Remember, the quad bursts on the Python series comes out to about 4x in output. I have no problem with any of those, but at the end of the day I feel as if it should ultimately come down to whatever the host wants.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:18 pm

Defender should definitely count. It's nowhere close to the power of a medium-class gun like a 1000 or whatever. I still think it's a tad big for pistol rounds, but we aren't doing those anymore so that don't matter.

I agree with marauder that the host of the war should make the final call on borderline blasters. That could get interesting if different hosts allow different guns.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:21 pm

the quad bursts on the Python series comes out to about 4x in output.
Try 2.8oz/s (2.3x) on the Python 2 which is more powerful than the first Python.

Also if the defender is only as powerful as Ben guesses it to be, it would barely count as a light primary because the on it power rating is 117 out of 120. You guys should have done the math BEFORE jumping on me.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:51 am

Duxburian wrote:Blacklist:
. anything using CPS or Hydro Power
. anything classed as medium or higher

Whitelist:
. WW Charger, Colossus, Colossus 2, Python, Python 2, Equalizer/Outlaw, Ultimate Outlaw, Renegade, Ultimate Renegade, Ultimate Vanquisher (not regular Vanquisher), and down
. XP 150, 310, 270, 110, 105, and down
. XXP 175
. SS 60/MDS, 50, and down
. SC 500, 400
. MD 6000 and down
. SS Overload and down (can list more but who would use these)
. Anything classed as a pistol
. Any Nerf Super Soaker other than the Hydrocannon
. Any syringe gun comparable in size to a Stream Machine TL 600
. Any onboard reservoir, non-CPS homemade comparable in size to the largest allowed gun in this class (excluding NSS). I don't actually know what the largest light primary is, otherwise I'd just say as large as that.

Up for debate:
. SS 200
. SC 600

I mostly agree with this list, although I think banning all CPS/Hydro Power guns outright might be a bit too far. As long as they are unmoded, I think guns like the Arctic Blast or my ARM 4000, despite being CPS, should still be in the "light" category due to their small size and power. Might have to make a rule about no using the riot blast if the Arctic Blast/Flash Flood is allowed, though at least on the Arctic Blast, the riot blast only goes about 30 feet. Even modded, I'd also still call the Defender light based on its size. Though also based on size, even the stock version should not be classed as a pistol. Small stream machines would also be OK so long as they are not moded with reservoirs (they are powerful, but essentially a one shot deal). In my experience what counts as a "light" primary has never been much of an issue, the only real argument I remember is whether the Defender counted as a pistol.
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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:03 pm

I think AB/FF/Hydrocannon belong in the medium class. Light class should have strict limits on output, range, and capacity, but the rules need to be written in a way as to never ban any nozzle mods, which are extremely trivial to perform, but are also practically non-reversible.

PC mods however, can be up for debate IMO, especially for the light class. They can have very significant effects on capacity that may throw it out of the light class.

Things like the Vanquisher and Orca belong in medium for their large capacity IMO.

Max-D 6000 is about on par with small HydroPower blasters such as the Lightning/Piranha and Tiger Shark. I actually prefer the 6k in many cases since it does a better job with drilled/larger nozzles around the 3x area.

It seems like a decent number of people here have never worked with smaller HydroPower blasters. They're quite weak primarily due to limited internals flow, but just don't get as much pressure in general as regular AP does. A pre-pumped AP offers similar dropoff (if not superior) compared to HP's.

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby isoaker » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:32 pm

Ok - two main thoughts on this:
#1: If these are truly rules for Community Wars, these rules should NOT be decided by the host if we are ever going to attempt to standardize some games. This doesn't mean another variation cannot be played, but if we want to have games played at different locations to be truly comparable to each other, the rules should remain constant.

#2: Rules should be easy to figure out and not rely on a listing of specific models.

For #2, I somewhat like the oncoming storm's idea of the using the power calculation (range in feet times output in oz), but this rule requires the need to have an accurate and consistent way of measuring output and range.

My personal opinion for "light blasters" are blasters that are lightweight (less than 1200g/40oz dry weight), have a reservoir less than 1800mL/60oz, are air pressure or piston-based or motorized (6AA battery-powered at most), and are less than 60cm/24" in length. These stats are much less subjective to measure and the tools for measuring any blaster can be carried to any location (portable scale, milk-jug with max volume mark, and a ruler/tape measure). I can't say these criteria are perfect, but they are easier to use, particularly if someone wants to use some off-brand blaster.

Just some thoughts. Soak on!

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:37 pm

I attempted that previously in this thread, but others opted for a blacklist-whitelist approach.

The problem with weight is with varying designs, and by that factor alone, an Orca is heavier (and thus, higher tier) than a CPS 10k due to the dry weight, despite the fact that the 10k vastly outperforms it. There aren't many of these exceptions, I guess, but it's something to consider.

Power rating is also tricky. We definitely can't get the power rating of all possible nozzle-drilled blasters out there, but we can go by the capability of the base model and exempt all mods.

iSoaker has the right idea on standardizing the light blaster rules either way, so instead of leaving host to rule, we have something we can all agree on, then perhaps the host can work out specific exceptions and exemptions from there.

My original idea was to set up a simple formula that takes the following in account: range, PC capacity, and reservoir. Ideally, I'd like to factor in stream velocity as well, but this factor doesn't scale linearly at all. I'm less of a fan of using output to determine this due to how it affects the power ratings. For example, the CPS 2500's 20x nozzle has a significant boost in power rating over the 10x, yet the 10x is a significantly more capable nozzle in the vast majority of situations. Perhaps we may want an adjusted power rating that puts more weight to the range, although this would also bias against blasters that only have range due to very good stream lamination. (Which is one of the few cases where range does not objectively measure combat usefulness. For example, the Python 2 is several tiers below the XP 150, yet has both superior output and range.)

I think we can all agree that shot time is too easily an irrelevant statistic except when the time is below about 5s (this also depends on the pump volume and pumps per tap shot factor) and is measured from pre-pumped separate AP's, continuously pumped PR's, or CPS's. Dropoff'd shot time is almost completely useless.

That's ultimately the problem we have. Statistically, a Colossus should definitely overtake an XP 150 (going by iSoaker stats since I never measured myself), but turns out that's not quite the case.

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby isoaker » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:50 pm

@CA99: I thought this thread was about "Light Blasters Only". :goofy: Orcas, CPS2000/2500s, CPS 10Ks, etc. would never qualify as such since all are CPS/bladder-based blasters.

The fact that an XP150 outperforms the Colossus doesn't really matter, IMO. Some blasters just perform better, but would fall into the light blaster category. I thought the purpose of the allowable blaster rule is just to limit max. blaster power forcing tactics and technique to be more of a deciding factor than simply blaster performance.

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Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:19 am

I agree with Isoaker; the point is simply to set the maximum power a light or medium blaster can have. Also my power based classification system covers mods flawlessly because most people on here test their mods anyway.
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