"Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Water warfare game types, ideas, rules, organization, etc.
User avatar
DX
Posts: 3445
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:35 am
Contact:

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby DX » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:41 am

#2: Rules should be easy to figure out and not rely on a listing of specific models.


I actually think that a whitelist of specific models is much easier to figure out. Do you really want to have to test everyone's blasters before a war? Time wasted for travel and setup is one of the top complaints at community wars. That, and I really don't want to introduce a need for yet more gear to transport. Venues like Sycamore Island, Beacon Terminal, Northgate, etc. are not gear-friendly. Most of us test our guns to different standards and use different methods for output, shot time, even range. Ben and I use output methodology that requires the use of a computer to review the footage, iSoaker uses a stopwatch. Ben and iSoaker end up with x, SSC Ben ends up with average, I end up with average minus drop off. I no longer allow for more than 3 MPH of wind or less than 10 full shots when testing range. Ben allows AP drop off to 75% of max range, iSoaker allows to 80%, I allow to 90%. Both Bens measure range in feet and inches, rounded to the nearest foot. I do the same, but rounded to the nearest inch. iSoaker measures in metric, then rounds to the nearest half meter and converts.

Just to check everyone's range, output, and capacity would require up to a tape measure, angle measuring device, camera, computer with internet, gallon jug, measuring cup set, shipping scale, refilling source, somewhere flat with a hard surface, and a lot of patience. Obviously, these things would be better done way before a war, but newbies won't test their guns. We also have differing levels of credibility with our data. I test my outliers rigorously (thrifted CPS 1200 MK1, CPS 2000 #5) to make sure the results weren't a fluke. That poor 2000 has been range tested 46 times just because I couldn't believe that it really shot in excess of 54 ft. I also retest everything when I change standard, like the move from 6 shots to 10 shots. I didn't need to retest for the reduction in wind limit from 5 MPH to 3 MPH, as none of my original data was collected in wind greater than 3.0. It's not an arbitrary number, either - I tried to test some AP guns, but found that any more than ~3 MPH ruins the test. A 5 MPH crosswind can blow a 3x stream right out of the testing area.

If we set parameters objectively, then we're not just making people use the same light primary rules, we are also making them use the same testing standard. Getting everyone to agree on one standard is like getting everyone to agree on speaking one regional dialect of English.

A whitelist may be more confusing for newbies and needs to be kept current, but it's great for hosts. If it's not on the list, it's not a light primary, it's so simple to manage round setup when you know exactly what is allowed. You can just eyeball what everyone is using in a few seconds, if something is modded/homemade, it can receive a 2nd look, but most of the work is done already. They can all share an objective set of parameters, but the host is most likely going to end up relying on a list anyway. If we agree on a common method like Stephen's, the first thing I'd do is figure out all the stock models that make the cut and write them down for reference, aka a whitelist.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

User avatar
the oncoming storm
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:10 pm
Location: Knoxville Tn
WWN League Team: Havoc
Contact:

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:24 am

@Dx
Even thought we all use different methods to test, we all trust each others test results as fact with the exception of isoaker's CPS's typically (seriously retest man, come on)
If you ever bother reading these, I worry for your mental sanity. :oo:

User avatar
HBWW
Posts: 4076
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:12 pm
Location: MI
WWN League Team: Havoc

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:42 am

Duxburian wrote:Most of us test our guns to different standards and use different methods for output, shot time, even range. Ben and I use output methodology that requires the use of a computer to review the footage, iSoaker uses a stopwatch. Ben and iSoaker end up with x, SSC Ben ends up with average, I end up with average minus drop off. I no longer allow for more than 3 MPH of wind or less than 10 full shots when testing range. Ben allows AP drop off to 75% of max range, iSoaker allows to 80%, I allow to 90%. Both Bens measure range in feet and inches, rounded to the nearest foot. I do the same, but rounded to the nearest inch. iSoaker measures in metric, then rounds to the nearest half meter and converts.

Just to check everyone's range, output, and capacity would require up to a tape measure, angle measuring device, camera, computer with internet, gallon jug, measuring cup set, shipping scale, refilling source, somewhere flat with a hard surface, and a lot of patience. Obviously, these things would be better done way before a war, but newbies won't test their guns. We also have differing levels of credibility with our data. I test my outliers rigorously (thrifted CPS 1200 MK1, CPS 2000 #5) to make sure the results weren't a fluke. That poor 2000 has been range tested 46 times just because I couldn't believe that it really shot in excess of 54 ft. I also retest everything when I change standard, like the move from 6 shots to 10 shots. I didn't need to retest for the reduction in wind limit from 5 MPH to 3 MPH, as none of my original data was collected in wind greater than 3.0. It's not an arbitrary number, either - I tried to test some AP guns, but found that any more than ~3 MPH ruins the test. A 5 MPH crosswind can blow a 3x stream right out of the testing area.


And that is why I asked you for strict rules when you asked me to run some tests. People need to be more strict in their methodology. I consider the position of the nozzle itself to be an important consideration; where is your reference point for starting range? How high is the nozzle off the ground? Two people measuring stats based on player position instead of on nozzle or trigger position need to be about the same height, and need to shoot in a similar stance. Before community wars, I would mostly hip-fire or shoulder the blaster. Now, I unsling it and carry it like everyone else. (Which has been good for my lack of muscle strength too.)

Here's what I think is the best method: blacklist and whitelist, and any blasters that aren't on the list are assessed on the spot. I talked to Scott the other day, and we agreed that any blasters that aren't listed that bend the rules must be left to majority consensus. I think that's a good way to do it, that or letting the host make the final decision. This would not apply to extremely obvious blasters. For example, if we go with our current light primaries only listing, the Storm 750 is not even remotely questionable. That said, any blaster not listed is not very common anyway. We also know that the next few years are extremely unlikely to produce any new blasters that challenge the rules for a light primary, so we don't even have to worry about that. The only challenge to the rules we have to look for are mods, but we also don't want to restrict people from doing anything creative in the workshop, which our community is very starved for. That said, SEAL's 6000 is something we have to seriously consider and discuss. We don't want to create an environment that favors stupidly ridiculous and impractical mods (i.e. trying to turn the HydroCannon into a 2500) just to work around restrictions.

Anyway, I'm going to throw out a candidate listing here for light primaries. I'm going to modify DX's list and compare it with the originals I had in mind. I disagree with banning HydroCannons, Flash Flood, AB's/IM2's, etc. while allowing a Vanquisher (I also need clarification if you're talking about the air pressure Vanquiser or the CPS one; I don't know that they're strictly distinguished based on Ultimate or non-Ultimate.); we need limits on BBT blasters based on capacity. They may shoot just like anything else, but the capacity puts it rather over the top.

Here's a proposition to expand on DX's list. All items marked TBD are either decided by consensus or by host, or can be open to debate here.

Blacklist:
- All CPS's made under the Super Soaker brand from any time. (HydroCannon is up for debate, but I'm strongly leaning towards classifying it as medium. Perhaps it may be allowed if the nozzle is stock.) SC 500 exempted, 600 will be debated when one actually exists. (I favor grouping it with mediums.)
- All BBT CPS's are medium or larger
- Most homemades. Homemades that are allowed must be comparable in battle practicality characteristics to one of the allowed blasters. (TBD)
- All high-capacity WW's: Vindicator, Vanquisher, Orca, Gorgon, Blazer.
- All high-capacity XXP's. (Specifically all XXP's except for 175.)
- Anything with a backpack over 3L.

Whitelist:
- All pressurized reservoir blasters. (Homemade PR's are TBD. All mods allowed except for anything involving homemade high flow valves/tubing.)
- All XP blasters. (A bit weary on the 150 for its sheer awesomeness, but it should be permitted for now. I'm curious on how a 150 tangos with a Flash Flood.)
- All classic SS except for 300 (200 being TBD, but given its apparent flimsiness, it should be permissible, but it's borderlining on high capacity.)
- All HP's with 450mL or smaller chamber.
- All BBT air pressure blasters below 450mL chamber.
- ARM4000.
- Any Storm.
- Any piston pumper (that has a series of check valves and reservoir).
- Syringes up to 14". (Syringes up to 26" are classified as medium.) Syringe type (stock, homemade, etc.) is irrelevant as long as it meets the length and usage rules.
- All non-CPS Hasbro blasters from 2003 to current except those previously blacklisted.

Syringes are up for debate with DX. Their sheer immobility for ground wars is why I'd like to consider allowing them despite their range. We have a problem of lack of variety in many games, yet a syringe would be able to break that problem very easily, especially in light primaries.

Expanding this list to an actual list instead of rules and groups would be too cumbersome, but this ruleset is not as difficult to remember.

User avatar
isoaker
Posts: 7109
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Here
Contact:

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby isoaker » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:18 pm

White lists are, of course, the easiest thing to implement since it's just a matter of seeing if a blaster is on the list or not in order to decide whether it fits. It's also the most limited in terms of including less popular brand blasters.

Standardizing how people measure stats like range and output would undoubtedly be difficult if not impossible, but I would hope we more-or-less measure weight and dimensions in the same way. While it makes more logical sense to try to categorize water blasters by output, range, and power, I don't foresee the group coming to an agreement on how to measure these stats any time soon.

All that said, all I will say is that it'd be nice to have some system made that does not need yearly updating and can be used to quickly classify any blaster (stock, homemade, modded) quickly without the need for excessive equipment. Once that's set, if the game is meant to be a rule set for Community Wars, not just a battle during a meeting of community members, the rules should NOT be adjusted further by the host. A game with adjust rules can, of course, be played, but it should not count as a "Light Blasters Only" game in the official sense.

Note: as for re-testing older blasters at iSoaker.com, forget-about-it. While the stats may not be as close to what others are seeing these days, we're also talking about 14-to-18 year old water blasters; I have no expectation for them to work as they did when they were new (bladders may have gotten stiffer over the years). iSoaker.com water blasters stats should ALWAYS be considered as the performance of a single sample; performance of other water blaster samples of the same model will undoubtedly vary and to try to determine a more realistic average performance for any water blaster model would require testing of at least 10 samples (20 would be better) from different batches to see the average and performance variance. I've got not time or capability to do such measurements, thus report only what I can, noting its limitations.

:cool:
:: Leave NO one dry! :: iSoaker.com | iSoaker Warriors: (Facebook) .:

User avatar
HBWW
Posts: 4076
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:12 pm
Location: MI
WWN League Team: Havoc

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:34 pm

isoaker wrote:All that said, all I will say is that it'd be nice to have some system made that does not need yearly updating and can be used to quickly classify any blaster (stock, homemade, modded) quickly without the need for excessive equipment. Once that's set, if the game is meant to be a rule set for Community Wars, not just a battle during a meeting of community members, the rules should NOT be adjusted further by the host. A game with adjust rules can, of course, be played, but it should not count as a "Light Blasters Only" game in the official sense.


As mentioned, that yearly update isn't really a concern at all since nothing coming out is challenging the general idea of what a light primary should be. Although I'm sure all of us would love for that to happen. =)

I suppose I've taken a hybrid approach. I've set up a collection of rules based on series of blasters and exceptions, which allows easy coverage of larger numbers of blasters. We can dictate a lot of them simply by common sense, but it's good to have them in the actual listing too.

@storm: That discussion has been had many times. iSoaker's not retesting the 1200. You can feel free to start your own database of water blaster stats though, or ask to contribute to others'.

FWIW, I like DX's methodology. Exclude the useless dropoffs from the stats, have stricter rules on wind, account for different instances of the same blaster (like that 54ft 2000), etc. This seriously cuts down on the amount of BS and useless numbers in the stats and brings them closer to being able to assess battle practicality, as well as raising awareness on just the extent to which these stats can vary amongst what's supposedly the same blaster. The outliers explain both the 54' 2000 and the 26' 1200.

User avatar
SEAL
Posts: 2405
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
WWN League Team: Catskill Mountain SEALs
Contact:

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:11 pm

Oh jeez, you guys are making this way more complicated than it should be. My recommendation: Go with a whitelist-blacklist system, and any questionable blasters can be tested out, and if they start completely dominating, move them up to medium. Simple as that. It seems like y'all are getting a little too caught up with the numbers; I've always tended to judge blasters based on how powerful (meaning combined range and output) they feel when shooting them. If there isn't enough of a power difference between two blasters to be noticeable while firing both of them, then the two guns are in the same class. Small differences in power mean s*** in water wars. (Heck, even larger differences don't mean a whole lot; I've made kills against CPS using a freakin' 270.)

Range/output testing is fine if you're a perfectionist and you want to compare two of your guns to see which has a small advantage, but that's it. I hardly ever range test anymore (and I haven't done output testing in like 4 years) because in combat, range can vary so much. I just use what I do best with, not what shoots the farthest.

Let's just finalize a whitelist and call it a day. Changes can always be made based on real-world outcomes.
Image

User avatar
HBWW
Posts: 4076
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:12 pm
Location: MI
WWN League Team: Havoc

Re: "Light Blasters Only" Rules for Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:18 pm

I only included capacity numbers in my listing because it was easier than listing every single BBT blaster from every single type/product line/etc. If you want the whole list, go look them up with the iSoaker stats. We have a lot of blasters, and we need our rules to cover as many as possible, so it's much easier to separate by classes, product lines, and other factors, then make exceptions from there.


Return to “Games & Organization”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron