Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Water warfare game types, ideas, rules, organization, etc.
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SEAL
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Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby SEAL » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:07 pm

Remember when I said that I had an epic gametype in mind for Downpour 2012, when we fight across the street from Dug Hill? This is what I had in mind; I got the idea from FPS games. In my opinion, we have to try this at least once.

Hold the Line:

Overall Game Objective(s): Capture all enemy spawn points before the time runs out! (Offense) / Hold the line! Stop the offensive team from raising their flag at your spawn point(s)! (Defense)

Number of Players / Participants: No less than 4

Distribution: 2 teams, should be close to equal

Hit / Scoring Mode: Hit-Based, Infinite Lives/Objective-Completion Scoring / Hit-Based, Elimination (Special circumstances)

Hit / Scoring Method: Any

Time Limit: The more spawn points, the higher the limit

Battle / Playing Field Size: Any

Specific Environment: Any

Special Requirements: At least 4 flags, half being a different color than the other

Specific Details and Rules:
Hold the Line has two different teams, the Offensive team, and the Defensive team. Each team has it's own objectives.

There must be at least 2 spawn points, but any number can be used. The spawn points should be linear, with each team starting at the two middle points. For games with an odd number of spawn points, each team starts at the next two points from the middle point, which is open for capture at the start of the game.

2 flags must be placed in each spawn point. To capture a spawn point, a member of one of the teams must plant the flag that represents his/her team, and take down the flag that represents the opposing team. Each team should choose a flag color before the game. Once a spawn point has been captured, any person on the team who captured it may respawn there, but the other team may NOT respawn at that point unless it is recaptured by a member of the team.

The Offensive team's job is to capture all spawn points. Once they accomplish this, the game is over and victory is theirs. The Defensive team's job is to prevent the Offensive team from capturing their spawn points until the time runs out. Should the Defensive team capture all of the Offensive team's spawn points, the Offensive team goes into sudden death, and each member of the team gets one life. If anyone on the Offensive team is hit, they are out of the game. If all players on the Offensive team are eliminated, the game ends early and victory goes to the Defensive team. If the Offensive team recaptures their spawn point, they once again have unlimited lives, but the players who were eliminated may NOT return to the game.

~SEAL

I'm going to stick this on the Wiki after I decide whether or not to replace the old HTL page with this and rename the old version, or change the name of this version and keep the old version as Hold the Line. Personally, I think this gametype better fits the title of "Hold the Line", but I'm still going to think about it. What do you guys think?
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby atvan » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:11 pm

This would be better titled "Conquest." It reminds me of DX's fictional story too. :goofy:
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV

Well, not that much soakage.

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby HBWW » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:19 pm

^ I was about to say the Conquest part too lol. It's called that in pretty much every game that does it. The main reason I don't do this sort of game/objective is because of the difficulty of actually having a "stand in this space for X seconds" kind of objective work out. Perhaps it's do-able with a bunch of hourglasses though.

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby atvan » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm

Is that really what the video-gamers call it? I made it up all by myself. *pat on back* I've essentially never played a video game, excluding smash bros (ftw) and Kirby air riders (even more ftw) and a few Wii games.

Now back to homework: define genocide edition. Oh how we love African history.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV

Well, not that much soakage.

Beware the Purple

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby HBWW » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:45 pm

Some games call it Domination (CoD) or Territories (Halo), but the Battlefield series (the only games that do it right by including a "neutral" state that the control point goes to before your team captures it, and by making each control point also a spawn point) calls it Conquest.

Anyway, for water warfare, you could do this by having an hourglass with labeled ends at each control point. Basically, the team's color label on the hourglass pointing upwards indicates that they own the control point. To capture, the hourglass must be flipped by an opponent who remains within blasting range of the hourglass at all times. If the time expires, players may spawn at any points associated with the control point (i.e. in the general vicinity of it). During the capturing process, if the player(s) capturing are hit after the hourglass goes halfway to their team, but before its completed, the hourglass is placed sideways and the control point is neutral, so that no one may spawn.

It's a complicated ruleset, and the first way to simplifying it would be to remove the neutral state. Plus, no rules for winning the game were specified in what I just put out. However, SEAL's original post called for a variation of this more similar to single-sided Territories in Halo.

Essentially, it's all just in how we specify objective items. We can say that instead of using hourglasses, the opponents have to fill up a container of water to capture a point. We could also say that the opponents have to capture a flag and return it to their spawn. We can say that whether or not defenders may spawn at objectives that haven't been taken by the opponents. Obviously, attackers win by taking all objectives (or a certain number of them, if you wish), and defenders can win by holding out within a time limit, by limiting the attackers' water supply and declaring them as the losers if they run out, or by limiting the number of lives the attackers have. Conversely, we can limit the defenders' lives with unlimited attackers' lives, and require the attackers to eliminate the defenders in a certain time limit. (A variation of M4's Last Stand game.)

And with that said, I probably need to update HBWW again lol.

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby marauder » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:48 am

This is pretty cool. I hope you guys get enough people to play this at Downpour. Conquest does sound more appropriate to this game type than Hold the Line. I think maybe we should put all these types of games in their own category, hold the line, the new hold the line, Last Stand, maybe even Defend the Tower.
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby SEAL » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:48 pm

I wasn't aware that they called it Conquest either. I guess I could keep the old version as Hold the Line (I want to modify it a little though, and rename the original version to "Hold the Fort" or somthing.), and name this one something else. Conquest is okay, but I like the sound of Domination better. However I seem to remember that there was already a water warfare game called Domination. Maybe not though.
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby atvan » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:37 pm

I would think of hold the line as something played on a smaller battlefield, wider than long, in which the defenders had to hold a defensive line and prevent the attackers from getting through to the defender's spawn point.
DX wrote:In the neanderthal days of K-modding, people would lop off the whole PRV

Well, not that much soakage.

Beware the Purple

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby HBWW » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:52 pm

As far as I'm concerned, you can call games whatever you want. I updated the HBWW games page lately, and even for games similar to actual games played in FPS's, I still twist them off with my own name.

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:01 pm

I would love to play this at Downpour, it would be awesome. I don't think hold the line fits that well ether. Maybe I am just a Battlefield fan (with withdraw since my computer is busted) but Conquest works much better. To me Hold the line sounds like a game kids play at the park when it snows. The hold their sleds up to make a wall, and one at a time sled down the hill and try and smash through it. Honestly it is a very stupid game that almost always ends up breaking every ones sleds.

I think the idea of the hourglass sounds good, but it should be made so that no one can spawn unless the base is fully captured by ether team. So if it is team 'A's base and a team 'B' guy comes over and flips the hourglass, no one may spawn until it fills back up in ether direction.

Downpour this year is going to rock, we have so many new game types to try out! Some one, bring hourglasses, I want to try this!
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby DX » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:04 pm

...or stopwatches. You can cheat an hourglass by shaking it, same way you make a reload go faster by shaking the bottle up and down. This sounds just like Territories in Nerf, except with designated offense and defense. I can see it degenerating into plain old territories though, because the best defense in a territory style round is offense. It can also be done with PVC pipes instead of flags. Colored tape goes on both ends of the pipe, one for each team, and one is placed in a bucket at each spawn point. To change control of the spawn point, one flips the pipe upside down to show the color of their team at the top. Course, I'd love to have sets of different colored flags, but if we can't find any, it's a cheap alternative.
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby HBWW » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:51 pm

One can also cheat a stopwatch by messing with the time, or just simply cheat with regards to taking hits. Considering how many factors (and how easily they) can be cheated on in a WW game, shaking an hourglass is a concern that goes way, way down the list. The problem with a stopwatch is that one is needed at every control point, and everyone has to know how to count upwards or downwards and make sure its working properly. One little button press mistake could ruin minutes of important gameplay for either team. Hourglasses just need to be flipped (and you also need to mind that you buy the 1-minute ones or less), and you're good to go. Doesn't matter if an hourglass is partially progressed when all capturing players at a control point are hit; it can be placed to the side and then the team defending it must reverse it under the same capturing rules to reset it.

Big problem with this type of objective in water warfare however, is that multiple players at a point cannot speed up its capturing process. There is only so much you can do without sophisticated (and easy to use) electronics or video games. The rest of your ideas are pretty solid though, and one can always forego an hourglass in favor of instant capture, or build their own using sand or perhaps, water.

Designated offense/defense versus symmetrical games makes for different options on how the game is organized, who can capture what, and how the teams must win.

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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby DX » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:20 pm

Designated offense/defense versus symmetrical games makes for different options on how the game is organized, who can capture what, and how the teams must win.


Oh, I know that, but in this particular setup, there isn't enough of a difference between the two. They have different goals, but aren't treated differently enough and the goals end up being the same because of that. Since neither team can eliminate the other without capturing their spawn points, that becomes the objective for both. Now, if the defense had limited lives, while the offense remained at unlimited respawn, that changes things. Or, say if time hurt one side more than the other, like if the defense had 2 minute respawns vs instant upon touching the spawn point for offense. Or, even better, if the defense capturing offensive spawn points has no effect, thus forcing them to actually play defense. Else as it is, both teams are the same until spawn points start falling and that's why I think it's the same as a standard territories game.
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby marauder » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:27 am

DX wrote:
Designated offense/defense versus symmetrical games makes for different options on how the game is organized, who can capture what, and how the teams must win.


Oh, I know that, but in this particular setup, there isn't enough of a difference between the two. They have different goals, but aren't treated differently enough and the goals end up being the same because of that. Since neither team can eliminate the other without capturing their spawn points, that becomes the objective for both. Now, if the defense had limited lives, while the offense remained at unlimited respawn, that changes things. Or, say if time hurt one side more than the other, like if the defense had 2 minute respawns vs instant upon touching the spawn point for offense. Or, even better, if the defense capturing offensive spawn points has no effect, thus forcing them to actually play defense. Else as it is, both teams are the same until spawn points start falling and that's why I think it's the same as a standard territories game.


Hmmm you mean like the Last Stand Game I wrote up.
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Re: Hold the Line: COMPLETE OVERHAUL

Postby HBWW » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:31 am

Well what I wanted to say was, if you have an asymmetrical setup, you can make it so that, say, one team owns all the points but cannot recapture them. You can assign one or both teams to have permanent spawns, or for both teams to have neither which can turn into an elimination game. (Or it can stagnate forever unless you have a way of counting points for who owns how many outposts for how long, or have a limit to both teams' total lives.)


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