Unified Hit/Point System - ^

[isoaker]

I doubt there can ever be a simple 'universal' tag/point system. Some people just don't like the idea of being forced to use any sort of 'tag' device to determine a hit/point, though a tag would be the most objective system. At the same time, other groups made up of less familiar people may not be able to come to consensus on how to score objectively without a tag due to lack of trust between players.

Thus, what I'm wondering is whether perhaps two main tag/point systems could be discussed by the group: one would use a tag-device for use when an objective scoring method is needed while the other system would be based on some sort of soak/hit and honour/parley between players to agree to a successful hit.

For a tag-device, I have a system I'm hoping to test out this summer with friends during some light skirmishes. I'd love to hear about other systems members use during their more organized water wars.

IMO, one of the barriers to having water wars being taken more seriously is the lack of an accepted means of scoring. With scores, water warfare can take on a truer level of competition on top of the 'having fun getting people wet' aspect.

[Stencil]

Sorry about the late reply.

One i've heard of, but never used, is the Takeshi's castle
style.

If you've never seen it, in the final showdown, contestants have to get in little buggie things and you have a little squrit pistol.

To see if your out of not you have have a piece of wire in a circle shape with paper wraped around.

You could attach these to guns.






Edited By Stencil on 1149104160

[Noodlez]

On my block we have fights all the time and to determine if some1 is dead/out is if their chest is soaked.:0

[WaterWolf]

I haven't tried this yet, so I don't know how well it works. What about taking a roll of those paper towels, then you tape one square to your back and one to your front, if its completely soaked, your out. I chose paper towels because they were flexible enough not to restrict movement, but strong enough that they were not likely to rip like tissue paper. And when I tested them, it took a nice amount of water to completely soak them, not to much and not to little.

In a real game, I though about having a "medic" for each team, who carried a roll of paper towels, tape and some cloth towels to dry the "out" player off a little. You could have different rules using the medic, deciding wether or not they can be shot at and if they should stay in one area or move around the field. That could add an interesting aspect to water war. FWOOOSHHH, "AAAAHHH, MEDIC!" {:-))

[Rook]

I had an idea, perhaps not realistic, but interesting, nonetheless. You know how they have the plastics that change color in warm/ cold water? Maybe you could set plates of them up like soakertags. Sure, this would require everyone to use cold water, but it's still a reuseable tag system.

[isoaker]

For hit-tag or a hit-system, I still prefer either a cheap, tag-type solution like using squares of paper/tissue or declaring a hit based on a splotch size in a particular region(s) of a player's shirt.

For the tag-system, I'm leaning towards the idea of using lanyards (or rope or some sort of neck-loop) that has a clip at the end to hold onto a tag-device of some sort. The nice thing is that this system doesn't require pins or clothing damage and doesn't have the problem as others have noted with tape coming off when wet or attaching funny-looking clothes pins to one's clothing. The problem with this system is that the target does end up moving more, but perhaps that just adds to the challenge.

[forestfighter7]

Urbanfighter7 and myself(as well as some people that don't particapate in the forums) use the method of a fist-sized blast on ones shirt is a kill. We got this idea from the Rigewood Militia. :laugh:

[DX]

One problem I see with certain tags is actually not the usual complaint. It's that games with hard-to-hit tags would be extremely low scoring [in 1HK Lives]. If it's really challenging to hit the tags, kills will take forever [they already can with no tags], resulting in scores like 1-0 and 1-1. With our local honor system, the mathematical average score based on our past 7 wars is 7.4 - 4.6, which is fairly high. We've had a 13-8 score once.

If I had to use a tag-esque system, I would go with the duct tape squares on the chest and back. The squares are a pre-determined size, and any splotch of water inside the lines = kill. Solves the problem of attaching tags, and the tape does not fall off because players aren't aiming for it. :p

The other main problem I have not brought up about tags is their re-usability. I think one reason why tactical water warfare is not popular is that everyone thinks that 1HK automatically = Elimination. I actually hate 1HK Elimination now, because it's scaring people away from tactical fights. One hit and you're gone, sitting somewhere bored. The score is limited to just the amounts of players on each team! Contrast that with the [IMO] best variant of tactical warfare there is: 1HK Lives. Unlimited lives means that you're never out, which makes the score the center of attention. Just like a baseball game, scores can vary so wildly that you can't predict the outcome. It could be 1-0, 4-4, 8-7, or even 16-9. People like to play games for score, so this variant is perfect!

For me to support a tag system, it has to work with 1HK Lives. The duct tape squares work for a whole battle, since you are aiming for an actual part of the shirt, not a physical "tag". It is an absolute system, while retaining some of the honor system feel.

[isoaker]

One problem I see with certain tags is actually not the usual complaint. It's that games with hard-to-hit tags would be extremely low scoring [in 1HK Lives].

Low scoring games isn't a major deterrent to the tag system, IMO. However, the point regarding the desire for more 'fluid' gameplay in 1HK lives / points-based games is that it'd be better to not have to worry about replacing tags, even cheap ones, during game play in order to continue. 1HK elimination games aren't as fun as the point-based 1HK Lives games. The point of tags, though, is to reduce questions whether a point should be awarded or not. Not wanting to get into the discussion about the value of honor and open discussion and the fact that even tags won't solve all disputes, a tag system is still an objective way to determine a hit. While the shirt-area idea is a good one that I like a lot, it suffers from a problem later in gameplay should that shirt area become saturated after multiple points. This may not be a problem in the battles Duxburian is involved in, but I could foresee this problem in general battles between lesser-trained players.

In my mind, the 'best' tag device would be a cheap, thin, light electronic sensor that would 'ding' or 'beep' if hit by a stream, but not if just moistened (I think I even know how this sort of device can be built, but am not sure of the true cost of building it and how well it would work in practice). It'd be fully reusable, objective, and doesn't need to be replaced after being 'tagged' by a stream. As well, if voltage requirements can be kept low enough, heck, can make it solar-powered to eliminate the need for replacing batteries.

Oh well, until a device like that can be made widely available, Soakerdom remains limited to the honour-tag system or various simple-tag ideas that can be quite effective in some settings, but have limitations for others.

[WaterWolf]

One problem I see with certain tags is actually not the usual complaint. It's that games with hard-to-hit tags would be extremely low scoring [in 1HK Lives].

Low scoring games isn't a major deterrent to the tag system, IMO. However, the point regarding the desire for more 'fluid' gameplay in 1HK lives / points-based games is that it'd be better to not have to worry about replacing tags, even cheap ones, during game play in order to continue. 1HK elimination games aren't as fun as the point-based 1HK Lives games. The point of tags, though, is to reduce questions whether a point should be awarded or not. Not wanting to get into the discussion about the value of honor and open discussion and the fact that even tags won't solve all disputes, a tag system is still an objective way to determine a hit. While the shirt-area idea is a good one that I like a lot, it suffers from a problem later in gameplay should that shirt area become saturated after multiple points. This may not be a problem in the battles Duxburian is involved in, but I could foresee this problem in general battles between lesser-trained players.

In my mind, the 'best' tag device would be a cheap, thin, light electronic sensor that would 'ding' or 'beep' if hit by a stream, but not if just moistened (I think I even know how this sort of device can be built, but am not sure of the true cost of building it and how well it would work in practice). It'd be fully reusable, objective, and doesn't need to be replaced after being 'tagged' by a stream. As well, if voltage requirements can be kept low enough, heck, can make it solar-powered to eliminate the need for replacing batteries.

Oh well, until a device like that can be made widely available, Soakerdom remains limited to the honour-tag system or various simple-tag ideas that can be quite effective in some settings, but have limitations for others.

I have the thing for you Isoaker, check out this link.

http://www.toyimpact.com/c5961-water-tag-set.html

Though it might be a little but cumbersome, but only experience will tell. It also doesn't require batteries, which is always good.



Edited By WaterWolf on 1152958979

[isoaker]

@Waterwolf:

hehe... yeah, I've seen those plastic watervests before. The idea is neat as the fill-meter serves like a reverse hit-point system. Too much on the meter and you're soaked. The problem there is, well, one needs to wear these hard-plastic the vests (not too bad, but a little expensive). The nice thing is that being hit by a larger stream or longer with a small stream would be indicated by more of one's soaked gauge to be filled, which is more 'realistic' for water warfare scoring that 1 hit = 1 point. At the same time, there is also something nice about a point-based system as this removes output from the score-calculation and relies more on aim.

This brings to light the question: would members prefer a points-based water war game or a 'soaked-level' based water war game?

[WaterWolf]

I personally prefer a "soak level" system, because this means that if you hit somebody with a little gun, it does a little "damage", but if you blast them with a monster, their "dead". Having a 1-hit-kill rule kind of takes the fun and strategy out of bigger guns. So these vests are right up my ally, though I haven't tried them yet. What would be really nice is if you could set the vest to take in more or less water before the meter is at the top. Then you could have less or more "armor".



Edited By WaterWolf on 1152978096

[isoaker]

I agree with WaterWolf on preferring the soak-level slightly more than points when it comes to scoring water wars. However, laying down $29.15 when on sale for 2 vests is a little on the pricey side when each player needs one. Need a much cheaper alternative to these vests, perhaps one that can be built from things that are easily found. Perhaps a device made from some transparencies/acetate sheets with a soaked-level indicator might work. Hmm...

However, a point-based system would not require as elaborate a hit-device which may result in its greater appeal. While soak-level is more relevant when it comes to a water fight, the point system may end up proving simple better from a practical standpoint.

[WaterWolf]

If you intend to use the vests in many fights, I think $15 per person isn't to much, about the price of a medium to light gun. But I may be able to make something like this, I'm always inventing something anyways, so I'll see what I can whip up.



Edited By WaterWolf on 1152989638

[ZOCCOZ]

If you go to the officail site, those vests are much cheaper: http://www.instantfun.ws/vest.htm

I once mentioned that those vests are better than the soakertags, when the tag game was introduced 2004. Some didn't like it, but those vests are probbaly the only way to take full advantage of both 1HK and soaking. Afterall, without the soaking part, might aswell play Airsoft, Paintball, Nerf or Lazertag. Why else buy a soaker if you don't care about soakage and the other alternatives are available to you?



Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1152996686

[WaterWolf]

Good find ZOCCOZ. That web site also killed my doubts about it not fitting us older Water Warriors. And I compleatly agree with you about the last part of your post. The "Why else buy a soaker if you don't care about soakage" part.

[urbanfighter7]

The vests on the website are ten dollers cheper but they don't come with the two guns.If you buy it with the two guns it's the same.

[WaterWolf]

Ya, but if you have no intention of useing those guns, then its better to just get the vests.

[ZOCCOZ]

The 2 guns are standard with the vests. (But then again, those are small launchers) Untill now I have not seen the vests sold seperatly. Ebay sometimes has the set for $10.

Stream machines has some good stuff. If someone ever has a good building plan to add a resovior as a mod, and the user has some muscle strength, then it would be hard to stop you. Output is suposed to be at least 5X.

[Edit]: 5x on the larger launchers like the QF-2000 model.



Edited By ZOCCOZ on 1153010097

[DX]

Afterall, without the soaking part, might aswell play Airsoft, Paintball, Nerf or Lazertag. Why else buy a soaker if you don't care about soakage and the other alternatives are available to you?

Are you suggesting that tactical warfare is an inferior version of "soaking?" Because if you are, you are treading in some very hot water. Playing for points is still "soaking" especially when nozzles under 5x tend not to be large enough to score fist-sized kills. In fact, the largest outputs in all soakerdom will be found this season in 1HK tactical warfare. If 1HK isn't soaking, then why are 1HK fighters building cannons capable of output over 100x, if 1HK isn't soaking, then what are doing for 3 hours each war, if 1HK isn't soaking, then all tactics and advances on the fighting frontier should be wiped off the slate. Let's return to your world of stock soakers and kids running around on lawns, shooting each other in the face from 5 ft away. If that's what "soaking" is, then I want no part of it.

Stream machines are inferior to the PVC Piston Pumper, a piston homemade with better range and output.

Playing for Points can be free. Nuff' Said.



Edited By Duxburian on 1153011976