CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

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Nemesis
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CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby Nemesis » Sat May 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Hey everyone, SEAL's post in the "standoff town" thread in the roleplaying subforum made me want to modify a cps 1-3-5 by putting in a cps 1000 pc with a 30 balloon k mod, (said pc because i have one that is not currently in use) and drilling out all or one of the nozzles to 5-10x size so that i could use it either as a powerful and durable rifle that fires out of one nozzle, or a close quarters/ambush weapon that fires out of all nozzles. Using the 1000 pc means the pc will be smaller than the original pc, giving it the abillity to expand further than a normal sized 1-3-5 pc, giving it more pc capacity and shot time than the already large amounts of these, while having more power from the stronger pc, and more range from the drilled nozzle(s). just an idea. comment please. sorry, I started rambling. :goofy:
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby the oncoming storm » Sat May 04, 2013 8:08 pm

To make a 1-3-5 work with a nozzle drill you must block extra nozzles. However Stock it may just be the the greatest portable water balloon filler ever. I can't think of any other water balloon filler that uses CPS teck, can defend (well somewhat) itself or fill 5 balloons at once.
Last edited by the oncoming storm on Sat May 04, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby Nemesis » Sat May 04, 2013 8:18 pm

why must you block the extra nozzles? If all the nozzles were the size I envision them, then pulling the trigger all the way will either make it fire out of all nozzles or only be able to make it shoot out of one nozzle anyway, so i do not think that it would be necessary to block the extra ones.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby martianshark » Sat May 04, 2013 10:45 pm

A lot of power would probably be lost from decrease in pressure outside the other nozzles. Most of the water would come out the middle nozzle, but some would dribble out the others, greatly decreasing range.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby DX » Sun May 05, 2013 12:20 am

1-3-5's won't be able to handle 30 balloons on a 1000 PC. It also can't handle 5 5x nozzles, it can barely handle 4x in total. We're talking about one of the lowest HPL's in CPS. Disabling the PRV is pretty much required if you want to amp up a 1-3-5, but I don't know anyone still active who has gone there, so you'd be on your own after that. It can handle like 20 balloons on an mk3 2100 PC with the stock PRV, but that still only hit 44ft from the center nozzle and didn't hit crap with all 5 engaged.

Meanwhile, a bone stock 1500 can hit 45-46ft off its 10x nozzle, with better construction quality, grip, and balance. Even if you disable the PRV and go all out, the 10K-3-5 will still be outclassed by a stock 1500, let alone a lightly or moderately K'ed one. The 1500 hasn't got great HPL either, but at least it's a higher power platform to begin with. Also, the lamination on the 10K-3-5 is going to suffer as the balloon count rises. It's not designed for high output or high range, so it's not going to be as juicy as the 1500's native 10x.

I used to have a similar dream of going out and turning a $4 CPS 1-3-5 into a war machine, then realized that my 1500s are better with 0 work done to them. Your 1000 PC would be more useful in a 1000, imo, because it is one of the best guns in the medium primary class. A modded 1-3-5 won't be one of the best as a primary or top level primary, so it's a lot of unnecessary work.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby Nemesis » Sun May 05, 2013 8:14 am

I see. that all makes sense. I thought that it was more durable than the 1500, but i wouldn't know. My pc is spare and has no gun to be with, so I wouldn't be losing a 1000. If the tubing is large enough all the way through, than why wouldn't the stream be like that of the 1500's 5x? If i disabled the prv, and did all the other mods, how far would you estimate it shooting out of one 5x nozzle? shooting all five would just be the equivalent of a riot blast, so it would not need good range. Also, how many balloons would you recomend putting on a 1500/1700?
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby soakinader » Sun May 05, 2013 11:05 pm

I have always had high hopes for the 1-3-5. It always seems like whoever has one doesn't want to put the work into it. It's true, there are better/easier guns to mod out there. But I believe!
//Anywho, what is HPL?

I would like a couple of 1-3-5 's to really experiment on. Add some balloons, rearrange the nozzles, use lots of glue and (eventually) end up with something capable.
Things I want to learn, on a basic level:
-How big can I drill all 5 nozzles before a stock 1-3-5 range drops too much? Modded with 10? 20? 30 balloons?
-Can I cut and rearrange the nozzles to make them more effective? Increase flow, maybe point all 5 forwards?

@storm, yeah the 1-3-5 would make a great water balloon filler. I honestly believe that the 1-3-5 was one of the best concepts (as far as the firing mech) that larami made, but unfortunately the way it was built it only works as a somewhat googy proof of concept, not as an optimal water gun like most of the CPS line.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby SEAL » Mon May 06, 2013 12:55 pm

HPL stands for High Pressure Limit. It's basically how much pressure a gun can handle before it breaks. I don't really know of any way to measure it other than by trial-and-error though.

I used to want a 1-3-5, because I heard that they went for low prices and could be modified to be competitive with more expensive guns, but like Duxburian, I realized that it would probably cost more money to mod the damn thing than to just buy a 1500. I suppose if you re-enforced the internals you could have something going (and that's what I'm going to say my RP character did, haha), but once again, that would cost more money and a lot more hair than just buying a 1500 or even K-modding a 1000/1200/2100.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby HBWW » Mon May 06, 2013 1:35 pm

*Before the PRV goes off, I'm pretty sure.

Ideally, I'd simply plug the nozzles and drill the main one, then k-mod to whatever the PRV allows (or none at all). Wouldn't be that much trouble for me, but I could see where it would get to be a lot more trouble than it sounds like.

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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby Nemesis » Mon May 06, 2013 7:49 pm

I beleve CA99 is right, hpl is the amount of pc force needed to activate the pr valve on the first pump. I think that what i am envisioning will be as, if not more, powerful than a 1500, that MAY have the ability to fire all of the nozzles in one burst that would function as a riot blast eqivalent. I already have a 1500 and a 1700, so i would like to try something new, and it might have good results, if I decide to do it.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby DX » Tue May 07, 2013 12:52 am

This is required reading.

High Pressure Limit describes the force it takes to engage a water gun's PRV. You can cause it to open by pumping quickly or reaching full pressure. It might not ever engage on a soaker with strong HPL, as the 2000 demonstrates. Squeaking is not a reliable way to find a soaker's HPL - the best way is to see what happens at full pressure. For CPS/HP, if the pump hits a wall and you can't physically pump anymore, the HPL is high. This indicates that the PC casing walls are being hit - the water pressure does not provoke the PRV to open before that point. If you can hear the PRV open and the pump does not ever stop dead, the HPL is lower. In that type of gun, the water pressure is too much for the valve and the bladder never makes it all the way to the walls.

HPL is tougher to figure out in AP guns since their PRVs are all going to open eventually. With pump volumes and PC volumes rarely being the same across the many AP guns there are, direct comparisons are not always available. Generally, you look at the power, since higher pressure obviously makes AP guns shoot stronger. An AP gun with high HPL makes a good candidate for PC replacement.

HPL governs the modability of a soaker and is thus important when power modding CPS. The low HPL CPS 2100 mk2 can't handle 10 balloons in some cases, while the high HPL CPS 2100 mk1 can handle 40 or more.

These are the ones I know of:
CPS 1000: at least one version with high HPL and one with low
CPS 1200 mk1/3: high HPL
CPS 1200 mk2/4: low to moderate HPL, usually low
CPS 1500 all marks: variable, but usually moderate, HPL
CPS 2000 both marks: very high HPL
CPS 2100 mk1: high HPL
CPS 2100 mk2: very low HPL
CPS 2100 mk3: moderate to high HPL
CPS 2500: moderate HPL
CPS 2700: low to moderate HPL

Disabling the PRV shifts HPL from what the valve will tolerate to what the soaker's parts will tolerate before breaking. A CPS 21K with 72 balloons can take 13 pumps safely. At 14, the firing valve exploded where it was narrow/thinnest. Epoxy was no match for the carnage and that soaker was totaled. The only non-complicated, non-mathy way to find this absolute limit is trial and error. This is why we are conservative with K-modded guns and why disabling PRVs has fallen out of favor. Note that if you do a very heavy K-mod, the sheer space the balloons take up allow the bladder to hit the walls before the pressure gets dangerous. A 95 balloon 21K will only accept 9 pumps, but with the pump stopping dead, you cannot overpump it.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby SEAL » Tue May 07, 2013 4:49 pm

Duxburian wrote:Disabling the PRV shifts HPL from what the valve will tolerate to what the soaker's parts will tolerate before breaking.


That must've been what I was thinking of. As for a way to calculate it, I'm sure it's possible, but the problem is that we lack enough information to do so. We would need to know what material the internals are made out of, and how much pressure is being generated. I would sure love to have that knowledge.
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Re: CPS 1-3-5 idea(s)

Postby HBWW » Tue May 07, 2013 10:39 pm

What I don't get is why it's "HPL" instead of "MPL" (Max Pressure Limit) or just "PL". (Is there "LPL"? [Low Pressure Limit] Of course, being an earlier article, it doesn't mention the specific check valve type: the PRV, although that's assumed by now I guess. (Still prefer the term PRV; check valve is too unspecific.) I also never even heard of the HPL term being used when K-mods were discussed until rather recently; perhaps that is because the k-mod article on SSC never covered it.

Anyway, the HPL article explains what I suspected about the 10k: the squeaking comes from low HPL, but it's strange that the pump still works, albeit not as effectively as it would without the squealing. The part about pump resistance is helpful though; should help determine what's worth K-modding and what isn't. What I've noticed is that some PRV's only go off shortly after making that last pump, as opposed to during the pumping. Not sure what this would mean for the PRV's pressure limit though. (And I never got PRV problems while pumping except on the 10k. The 2100 MK II I have simply doesn't pump at all, I'm pretty sure.)


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