The Problem with WBLs
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The Problem with WBLs
Water Balloon Cannons were popularized by DX with his D1 and was quickly followed by the D2 causing a huge number of these weapons to be made over of about a year before falling out of favor. Seal's D1 sparked some interest in WBLs but a year later WBLs have again started to fall out of use.
This thread is to be used to figure out why these potently devastating weapons keep being used as decoration in armorys
1. Low ROF, I timed reloading in the navel round in 2012 with 50 seconds being typical.
2. Difficult to aim M4 pointed this one out, it's hard to fire a ball valve type WBL on the run without messing up your aim.
3. Huge size, While a Loaded WBL may weigh less than a CPS 2000 A small one is still longer than a Monster XL (2000) making it hard to run with
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Thats all I can think of please comment with anything I may have missed
This thread is to be used to figure out why these potently devastating weapons keep being used as decoration in armorys
1. Low ROF, I timed reloading in the navel round in 2012 with 50 seconds being typical.
2. Difficult to aim M4 pointed this one out, it's hard to fire a ball valve type WBL on the run without messing up your aim.
3. Huge size, While a Loaded WBL may weigh less than a CPS 2000 A small one is still longer than a Monster XL (2000) making it hard to run with
.
.
.
Thats all I can think of please comment with anything I may have missed
Last edited by the oncoming storm on Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
4. Preparation time required.
5. Number of separate components required.
6. Lack of accuracy.
5. Number of separate components required.
6. Lack of accuracy.
lolwhut?the oncoming storm wrote:Water Balloon Cannons were invented by DX with his D1 and was quickly followed by the D2 causing a huge number of these weapons to be made over of about a year before falling out of favor. Seal's D1 sparked some interest in WBLs but a year later WBLs have again started to fall out of use.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
7. Small area of effect. A water balloon only carries so much water, and the splash radius is limited. You *could* use more water, but that would negatively affect the size/weight and/or range. Question, what's the biggest size of water balloon launcher made (as far as barrel diameter/balloon volume)?
8. Unlikely to hit. Even if you can get the balloon to go where you want it to, it's really only going to be effective if the enemy doesn't see you (or the balloon!) coming, or is stuck in terrain that makes it impossible to dodge.
9. Limited usefulness. In the woods or in close quarter combat the WBL is quite impractical. Really only suitable for larger spaces.
So I have inadvertently come across a possible solution for the WBL. You would have to build one to actually see if this is possible, but what about making a water balloon 'lobber' designed for shorter range combat, say 40-70 feet of range, with a bigger barrel, bigger water balloons, more splashage, possibly increased ROF. Sounds like fun to me.
8. Unlikely to hit. Even if you can get the balloon to go where you want it to, it's really only going to be effective if the enemy doesn't see you (or the balloon!) coming, or is stuck in terrain that makes it impossible to dodge.
9. Limited usefulness. In the woods or in close quarter combat the WBL is quite impractical. Really only suitable for larger spaces.
So I have inadvertently come across a possible solution for the WBL. You would have to build one to actually see if this is possible, but what about making a water balloon 'lobber' designed for shorter range combat, say 40-70 feet of range, with a bigger barrel, bigger water balloons, more splashage, possibly increased ROF. Sounds like fun to me.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
The problem at shorter ranges is that your hand becomes more effective (what she said). In the Valley of Death HTL, I was lobbing balloons with the lax stick and getting about 120ft. However, the balloons were high quality and I found that I could just throw them the same range, with more accuracy and higher RoF. Nothing (that is legal with the ATF) matches the RoF of hand throwing.
The problem with WBLs, beyond the huge time required for set up and clean up, and the slow RoF, is the accuracy vs the speed of the target. Changing the valve type does not really change this. The sweet spot for a WBL is from around 50 to 150ft, the closest you can get without being unsafe. At that range, actually hitting anything is insanely difficult. Beyond 150ft, forget about it. People can just dodge things from that distance. This is why I don't even fire the water cannon from 50ft, even though it can hit 70.
The problem with WBLs, beyond the huge time required for set up and clean up, and the slow RoF, is the accuracy vs the speed of the target. Changing the valve type does not really change this. The sweet spot for a WBL is from around 50 to 150ft, the closest you can get without being unsafe. At that range, actually hitting anything is insanely difficult. Beyond 150ft, forget about it. People can just dodge things from that distance. This is why I don't even fire the water cannon from 50ft, even though it can hit 70.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
The slow rate of fire is only a problem with the Douchenator or similar designs. I had some ideas for more practical WBLs, but I made a Douchenator because I wanted some experience with them first. (And right now I don't have any spare money for that sort of thing.) Nothing beats a Douchenator in terms of simplicity and low cost.
The "problem" with WBLs is similar to the homemade issue. Nobody has made any really battle-practical designs yet. Unlike homemades though, WBLs don't serve as big a role in battles so people don't build them as much, and with nobody building them, innovative designs are unlikely to be born. However, I think many people are missing out on the best application for WBLs in battle. Can't say any more though; it's classified SEALs material.
The "problem" with WBLs is similar to the homemade issue. Nobody has made any really battle-practical designs yet. Unlike homemades though, WBLs don't serve as big a role in battles so people don't build them as much, and with nobody building them, innovative designs are unlikely to be born. However, I think many people are missing out on the best application for WBLs in battle. Can't say any more though; it's classified SEALs material.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
Both teams have secrets,
our team has an advantage in that the whole team is comprised of teckies VS you being the only teckie on your team
our team has an advantage in that the whole team is comprised of teckies VS you being the only teckie on your team
If you ever bother reading these, I worry for your mental sanity.
Re: The Problem with WBLs
I think Scott counts as a "teckie", he is a SEAL.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
Our team's advantage is having DX, Marauder, and Wetmonkey. (i.e. Fighting ability.) Tech has not won us anything yet, save for DX's APWC making hits in a handful of games.
Scott's more of a techie with Legos than water blasters lol. However, I would suppose that he can actually spell the word properly.
Scott's more of a techie with Legos than water blasters lol. However, I would suppose that he can actually spell the word properly.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
Wetmonkey is on our team? And lol @ Scott.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
psshhhaaaa, wbls turn into techies? what has the world come to?
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
While WBL's have major drawbacks the biggest problem with WLB's is improper tactics, launchers are best used at long range against unaware targets (IE sniping) not as weapons for scrimmaging. Aqualabs scored dozens of kills when sniping with his 2" WBL, while our improper tactical use of WBL's has only ever scored 1 kill.
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Air Pressure Water Cannons fit our tactics better as demonstrated by the 5 kills DX scored in (3 shots) when he used his.
Accuracy (at community wars)
WBL's 1/20
APWC's 5/3
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Air Pressure Water Cannons fit our tactics better as demonstrated by the 5 kills DX scored in (3 shots) when he used his.
Accuracy (at community wars)
WBL's 1/20
APWC's 5/3
If you ever bother reading these, I worry for your mental sanity.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
Sniping? I seriously doubt it. The minute the enemy hears that "DOUCHE" sound, they'll scramble for cover faster than you can say, "Oh no, don't move..."
"We" only used WBLs for scrimmaging once as far as I know; that one round in Hydropocalypse. Yes, they are a severe hindrance (not to mention dangerous) in that type of battle and I never want to do something like that again. The only other times we've ever used them in community wars were during scenario rounds, where the tactic was simply, "just shoot the thing at the enemy to put on a show for the camera". (Ironically, the only kill was never captured on video.)
I have better tactics for WBLs, but like I said, I'd rather not divulge them unless the rivalry is ended for good. We don't need "teckies" to come up with tactics and strategies.
"We" only used WBLs for scrimmaging once as far as I know; that one round in Hydropocalypse. Yes, they are a severe hindrance (not to mention dangerous) in that type of battle and I never want to do something like that again. The only other times we've ever used them in community wars were during scenario rounds, where the tactic was simply, "just shoot the thing at the enemy to put on a show for the camera". (Ironically, the only kill was never captured on video.)
I have better tactics for WBLs, but like I said, I'd rather not divulge them unless the rivalry is ended for good. We don't need "teckies" to come up with tactics and strategies.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
I personally think wbls do have potential. We just haven't found the right form factor, ergonomics, or use yet. I suppose as time goes on we will have a great wbl at no more than 1 1/2 feet with decent range.
remember,you also don't exactly need a pringles can or any hard metal or plastic object behind the balloon. Remember the good ole days when people sliced up potatoes and put that behind the wb? well, in a war with a fast pace and close quarters, range wouldn't exactly be the key. My point is, I would rather be able to shoot a wbl at closer to point-blank(45+feet or even less) with hindered range, but a harmless potato in the back than having massive range, power, and danger with a range limitation.
remember,you also don't exactly need a pringles can or any hard metal or plastic object behind the balloon. Remember the good ole days when people sliced up potatoes and put that behind the wb? well, in a war with a fast pace and close quarters, range wouldn't exactly be the key. My point is, I would rather be able to shoot a wbl at closer to point-blank(45+feet or even less) with hindered range, but a harmless potato in the back than having massive range, power, and danger with a range limitation.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
Hmm. I am thinking about a WBL with a sliding sabot so that you don't have to retrieve/use a new one for each shot. Sort of like a crossbow/slingshot instead of a cannon.
PREDIT: Like a launch sled.
It would just need either some foam or a spring attached to the end so that it doesn't break off the end. And it might need a manual PRV to empty out the chamber after each shot.
Do the pringles cans fly far when shot? Or do they just flail around in the air while the balloon zooms away?
How many different types of WBL are there? Ignoring atlatl/manual throwing sticks, giant rubber slingshots/bows. Just gun-types. (EG douchenator)
PREDIT: Like a launch sled.
It would just need either some foam or a spring attached to the end so that it doesn't break off the end. And it might need a manual PRV to empty out the chamber after each shot.
Do the pringles cans fly far when shot? Or do they just flail around in the air while the balloon zooms away?
How many different types of WBL are there? Ignoring atlatl/manual throwing sticks, giant rubber slingshots/bows. Just gun-types. (EG douchenator)
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
well. as ive seen, please correct if not true, sabots fly with the wb, but drop off after a certain length.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
I have no Idea how many Water Balloon Cannons were ever made but its well over 100.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
It depends on the design of the sabot. A good sabot would cup the balloon, and provide good support, with flaps when loaded. The flaps then open outwards pretty much as soon as the balloon and sabot leave the barrel due to air resistance (a bit like a parachute). This would slow it down and it wouldn't travel too far before falling to the ground.Poseidon2000 wrote:well. as ive seen, please correct if not true, sabots fly with the wb, but drop off after a certain length.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
too far as in more than 30 feet? I still would think that another form of sabot-like thing would be better, even if sabots get more range. wbls already have gotten 100+ ft. w/out sabots, instead using pototoes or other objects to block the wb from direct air impact.
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Re: The Problem with WBLs
If you are using a "potato or other object to block the projectile from direct air impact", it's a sabot.
*Edit* Lolfail. I forgot to add some silly smilies or something to this post. No need to be so srs!
A piece of wadding, a pringles can, a potato, they're all the same thing. Maybe a pringles can is the most shapely sabot, but still.
Also, while I have no doubt hundreds and thousands of air cannons have been made, to shoot water balloons, potatoes, etc, what I mean is how many types.
I suppose that it's a broad question, but it is akin to "how many ways can you make water shoot out of a gun?". I would count 4 primary designs with a dozen sub-types.
As for a wbl, I can see elastic, spring powered, air pressure, and explosive (using butane, for example). I know that you can use different types of firing valves for air pressure. I just don't know of any strictly air pressure WBL's that have a fundamental design difference from, say, the Douchenator.
*Edit* Lolfail. I forgot to add some silly smilies or something to this post. No need to be so srs!
A piece of wadding, a pringles can, a potato, they're all the same thing. Maybe a pringles can is the most shapely sabot, but still.
Also, while I have no doubt hundreds and thousands of air cannons have been made, to shoot water balloons, potatoes, etc, what I mean is how many types.
I suppose that it's a broad question, but it is akin to "how many ways can you make water shoot out of a gun?". I would count 4 primary designs with a dozen sub-types.
As for a wbl, I can see elastic, spring powered, air pressure, and explosive (using butane, for example). I know that you can use different types of firing valves for air pressure. I just don't know of any strictly air pressure WBL's that have a fundamental design difference from, say, the Douchenator.
Last edited by soakinader on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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