JJA Duels

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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JJA Duels

Postby jja » Sat May 16, 2015 9:01 am

This is my 50th post! So i am starting a new series of simple battle reports inspired by Duelfest. Each battle will one hit scores, first to five hits then the guns will be swapped to mitigate player skill, and first to five again. For simplicity the battles will be fought on flat open grass with no elevation or cover, wind will certainly be a factor.

First up CPS 1000 Vs Colossus 2 (with nozzle drill and 30 pumps of precharge)

Results CPS 1000 - 10 Colossus 2 - 2

Analysis CPS 1000 easily out performed and out scored the Colossus 2. The CPS 1000 won for several reasons. It had better rate of fire because its longer near full range shot time (although the colossus 2 has longer regular shot time). The CPS's shots were harder to avoid due to its greater output over the Colossus 2. The conditions were windy and this caused the colossus 2 to lose a lot of range due to the stream breaking up earlier, the more powerful drilled nozzle helped in the wind but shot time was to short to capitalize. The wind did effect the CPS 1000 but this was much less noticeable. The Colossus 2 did score two hits so was not completely outgunned it is lighter so i was able to maneuver a little better than the CPS 1000. The Colossus has much more field life it would be possible for the Colossus 2 to kite the CPS 1000 and dodge shots till the enemy was out of ammo. But this would not be viable in a game where the boundaries were smaller or one had to defend a point. Had there been less wind the colossus 2 would have faired better

Please feel free to share any thoughts on how these blasters stack up, did i miss any factors that helped the CPS gain victory or allowed the Colossus 2 to score the odd point?

Next time, Colossus 2 Vs Super Soaker Shotblast

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby SEAL » Mon May 18, 2015 9:45 am

Good stuff! I was actually thinking of doing some of these again. I would recommend duels where the guns are more evenly matched though. I mean, most people know that a CPS 1000 pretty much wipes the floor with a Colossus 2. That said, I like your analysis, and I'm looking forward to more matchups in the future.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby marauder » Mon May 18, 2015 4:47 pm

Hey JJA, I love that you're doing your own duels. Do you have any pics of the new nozzle in action? Did you try out the nylon spacer as a nozzle? I do still think it was good that you compared the Colossus 2 and the CPS 1000 as they are not completely different. It helps us know just how much better the 1000 is, or just what brought on the victory.

Also, you should check into how much shipping is from the US to the UK. I have at least one, probably 3 or 4 guns that are better than what you currently have (aside from the Colossus 2 and CPS 1000) that I'd give you for free. You'd just have to pay shipping.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby jja » Wed May 20, 2015 12:11 pm

thanks guys for the great feedback, its very encouraging! I shall post pictures of the Colossus 2 new nozzle firing in it's modification thread when i get a chance.

@Maurauder, what a kind, generous and unexpected offer, thank you! i will look into the shipping and will PM you to discuss this further.

Round 2: Colossus 2 (30 pre-pumps and nozzle drill) VS Shotblast

Results Colossus 2 9 - Shotblast 6

Analysis The Colossus 2's key advantage was its greater range, and the shot time helped as one could fire volleys tap shots (not too many taps as shot time is not fantastic). The Colossus 2 seems to lose some power over time as some of the pre-charged air is occasionally lost on firing (especially when using the N9 and N9 burst) even when one is careful to fire at optimal angles and to keep the pressure chamber topped up. The colossus 2's has reasonable but not great output on its longest range nozzle (N5) so the shots were easily dodge-able unless the user fired a volley of 2-3 tap shots at various angles. The lack of output made the shots very vulnerable to being broken up by wind. The shot blast was less potent over all but more consistent (and less badly affected by the wind) - every shot is the same(until you get to the last 10 or so which are noticeably less potent), this means once the Colossus 2 depleted some of its pressure by firing (if the shot blast dodged) it had a good window of opportunity to get forward and make a hit. The Shotblast has quite decent spread so was reasonably hard to avoid which mitigated its inability to rapid fire tap-shots due to lacking a trigger. The Shotblast is lighter than the Colossus 2 but not enough to make a difference for an adult user (but this would be a factor for a child or younger teen). The Shotblast has too few shots per fill (about 40) for protracted combat - it ran out much faster than the colossus 2 and was less effective for its last 10 shots than normal. So in a longer re-spawn type game where refilling was hazardous or not possible the Colossus 2 would do much better than the score of this duel suggests.

The Shotblast is reported to have delayed firing but if one keeps it well greased (both the pump and pressure chamber o-rings) as i have done it is not really an issue - the delay is barely noticeable.

next time - Colossus 2 vs Gorgon
Last edited by jja on Wed May 20, 2015 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed May 20, 2015 12:41 pm

My guess for Gorgon vs Colossus 2 is Gorgon, 10 to 6,

(why didn't the Shotblat vs Colossus 2 dual go to 10 hits JJA?)
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby jja » Wed May 20, 2015 12:49 pm

Each half of the duels are first to 5 hits then switch weapons and repeat. I won with both weapons scoring 5 hits before my opponent. The score breaks down like so:
Part 1 Colossus 2 - 5 Shotblast - 1
Part 2 Colossus 4 Shotblast 5

So the final score is 9-6

i think 10-6 is a reasonable estimate but I think the gorgon might win by a greater margin going by Duelfest's Gorgon v Colossus and Colossus v Colossus 2 results. Also the Gorgon is about equal with the CPS 1000 which went 10-2 vs The Colossus 2

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby marauder » Wed May 20, 2015 2:32 pm

The Gorgon should own both blasters, but if you have pump problems or if you aren't very strong there is potential for the Colossus 2 to upset. I am thinking of modding my Colossus 2 so that it has a larger pressure chamber, but I have to do a full review on it for Hydrowar before I start cutting it apart. I'd probably increase the pump size too if possible.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed May 20, 2015 4:15 pm

JJA keep in mind that the relative player skill, physical advantages and athleticism of both players involved are probably very different from M4 and DX at duel-fest.

I had considered this before I made my guess because otherwise I think it might have ended with another beat-down of 10 - 2. If for no other reason other than the Gorgon (to quote Seal) "handles like a cooler" and that makes it more difficult for someone who isn't used to it's quirkiness to fight well with it.



Or to put it another way...

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby jja » Wed May 20, 2015 4:45 pm

Player skill is a factor but i decided that weapons must be swapped during the duel as that mitigates the effect - its a cross over study. My opponents greater strength compensates somewhat for my agility and speed.

Another time we shall fight with the same weapon as a control to see how skill affects matters. With identical weapons if my opponent was useless at fighting then i score 5 - 0 in part 1, and then 5 - 0 in part 2 then the final score would be a 5-5 draw. If my opponent was well matched with even guns i would expect scores in each part to be close to 5-4, so final scores 9-9 or 10-8 if one of us is lucky. Essentially if the control game scores close to 5-5 then there is a high skill gap. If the control game scores close to 9-9 then skill is not so great a factor.

The issue would come if i can easily overpower my opponent with a far worse blaster as then a weak blaster would draw 5-5 with a strong one.

the 10-2 match between the CPS 1000 and Colossus 2 splits like so
part 1 CPS 1000 - 5 Colossus 2 - 2
part 2 CPS 1000 - 5 Colossus 2 - 0

This split shows skill was a factor as i could get hits against the CPS - my opponent could not. But the skill gap was not enough for me to defeat the CPS 1000 with The colossus 2. However i think the score still is a good indication of the relative power of the two blasters. In addition for me the Score is less important than the Analysis, which i think is more informative - especially for players who have not handled both blasters.
Last edited by jja on Thu May 21, 2015 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed May 20, 2015 5:51 pm

I totally agree with the idea that the analysis is by far the most useful part of the results, but the score still gives a general idea of how well matched they are. Personally I prefer the official dual-fest's split of 5 minutes with each blaster per player and just logging the scores per blaster.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby Cochise » Wed May 20, 2015 5:52 pm

I really need to try this out myself. Unfortunately we do not have that many good guns to use.

Does anyone else feel that the shot blast is under rated? It has a pretty thick and powerful stream and has about the same rate of fire - picked that term up from hydrowar - as the Colossus 2. I love my colossus 2, but the small pressure chamber really does it in. I was looking at some old reviews and saw that even the XP 110 holds more.

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby jja » Thu May 28, 2015 9:40 am

@Cochise. I really like shotblasts, I used to use one as my primary (until i was given my CPS 1000). In the battles i fight Shot-blasts are rather effective, even when faced with a colossus 2, although they struggle against anything more potent. The main reason for this is ease of use. They shoot well without needing to keep track of pressure, remembering to pre-charge or anything like that. As such even the most inexperienced player can do reasonably with one. Also they are hard to break - well built and tracked pump. All in all a good blaster to lend out, and in a battle with only Nerf Super Soakers around they are probably the best choice (modded Hydro-cannons aside)

Round 3: Gorgon (30 pre-pumps) Vs Colossus 2 (30 pre-pumps and nozzle drill)

Results Gorgon 10 - Colossus 2 3

phase 1: Gorgon 5 - Colossus 2 0
phase 2: Gorgon 5 - Colossus 2 3

Analysis The Gorgon wins this match-up primarily due to its Superior range and pressure chamber size. The Pressure chamber size allowed the Gorgon more time firing at near full range, as such the Gorgon has more tap shots available allowing more aggressive firing, The gorgons greater pump volume added to this effect. The Gorgon's smallest settings N1 and N3 are basically useless in this situation and were not used. The N5 N7 and N9 settings are all reasonable against the Colossus 2, especially the N9 as this has the greatest range and output. The N9 settings resistance to wind is limited by its poor stream lamination, when the wind was swirling rather than prevailing the better laminated N7 or N5 could shoot further. The Gorgon has higher capacity allowing better field life than the colossus 2 even when on the Gorgon was on N9 (highest output) and the Colossus 2 was primarily on N5 (lowest output)

The Colossus 2 was not completely out gunned, it has sufficient range and output to challenge the Gorgon. The Colossus 2 has a more optimized set of nozzle settings. The N5 setting's greater shot time allowed for more rapid tap shots (on par with the rate of fire of the gorgons N9), the N9 burst has good spread especially at full range making shots harder to evade and the N9 stream has good output although like the gorgons N9 lamination is not great. The Colossus 2 is much lighter than the Gorgon and is less bulky making it much easier to maneuver with (strong adults may find neither encumbering and younger users may find both to be encumbering)

The Gorgon used in this battle has an N9 stream not a quad burst like Maurader's Gorgon.

Next time Colossus 2 Vs Triple Charge

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby marauder » Thu May 28, 2015 10:03 am

I really enjoy reading these. Does your Gorgon pump smoothly? We have had issues in the past with one or two Gorgons being difficult to pump. Also, is the Gorgon's pump volume really better than the Colossus 2? I would check but I'm about to head out the door. One other thing that you didn't mention, which I didn't think about until I took apart my Colossus 2, is that the Gorgon's PCs drain vertically, whereas the Colossus 2 has an intake that is more horizontal, similar to CPS guns but without the boost of the constant pressure to ensure everything is firing, or perhaps more accurately, similar to a PR gun with an intake tube like an XP 65. Gravity does its job for the Gorgon, while jostling the Colossus 2 around can affect the amount of pressure you're getting at any particular moment.

I feel like the superior mobility should help make up some of the Colossus 2's disadvantages, but, aside from the Shotblast, it's been creamed by basically every blaster we've tried it against. I hope that my CPS conversion mod will make it more competitive. Perhaps I should do something similar after the mod.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby the oncoming storm » Thu May 28, 2015 12:19 pm

It should be relatively rare from what I know to find a Gorgon Mk1. The N9 stream setting that sets it apart from the Mk2's "Typhoon" N9 was only on AP Gorgon's during the first year of its 4 year production run (I know it was Canadian market till this year).. JJA when and where did you buy yours?

You still need to run the Drilled Colossus 2 vs a stock one and see just how much better it is.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby jja » Thu May 28, 2015 1:33 pm

The Gorgon has a 25ml pump the colossus 2 has a 20ml pump (Isoaker measurements not mine)

My Gorgon is stiff to pump in the last 1/3 of the stroke, so rapid shorter strokes is best. I will open it up and reinforce and regrease the pump when i have time hopefully that should help.

I bought my Gorgon new in box, a few weeks ago on ebay UK.

i think i would prefer a typhoon N9 - am i correct in thinking this the same as the N9 burst on the Colossus 2? - as it is much easy to drill a larger stream than replicate a quad burst.

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Re: JJA Duels

Postby the oncoming storm » Thu May 28, 2015 2:07 pm

Yes it it jja I just gave it that name in 2012 because of it's similarity to a CPS 3000/3200's "Typhoon" setting
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby marauder » Thu May 28, 2015 3:31 pm

So, if you're making rapid, shorter strokes, you aren't getting the full 25 ml. If that's the case, then was the pump volume really an advantage?
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby SEAL » Thu May 28, 2015 4:40 pm

Well at least the Colossus 2 is a lot more fun to use than the Gorgon. But ergonomic issues aside, I've always wondered how the Gorgon does so well with subpar stream lamination. Power-wise, it's basically like a big Colossus. So that explains how it can easily overcome its little brother and blasters of similar caliber (to the Colossus), but I don't get how people are toting it as a small-CPS killer. When I first fired one I felt kinda underwhelmed; the stream went far but definitely didn't compare output-wise to a juicy 1000/1200/2100 blast. jja, I'd be really interested to see you do Gorgon vs. 1000. Also, if anyone has a Gorgon that they're bringing to a war, I'd like to try it out for a round in case I just started off on the wrong foot.

Expect something like this from me fairly soon...
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby marauder » Thu May 28, 2015 6:06 pm

SEAL wrote:I don't get how people are toting it as a small-CPS killer.


This is just based off of pure battle experience. It handles awkwardly and often has pumping issues, but at the end of the day the Gorgon smashed the Colossus, Colossus 2, XP 150, and XXP 275, fought the CPS 1000 to a dead even standstill, and was up by 1 (3 to 2) against the CPS 4100 when the 4100 broke (which in a sense could be considered even more of a victory, since the Gorgon was also more durable). During Outposts at FF 12 I wrecked Sam, who was using a CPS 1200, and I had success against the rest of the SEAL team even though they were up hill from me. You could argue that the hilly terrain gave me a distinct advantage over Sam, but he actually had the height advantage more than me, and Sam is underrated in his utilization of stone walls, big trees, and other hiding spots, where he lacks skill is in his spacial awareness which had nothing to do with the fight. Also, in MOAB Rob and I, using Gorgons, defeated Sam and Scott who were using Vindicators. We probably won due to my superior knowledge of the terrain (Rob even knew the terrain some), the battle being in my backyard, and in Rob's and my ability to communicate and work together, as Scott and Sam got separated. In fact, at first thought I'd probably say that the Vindicator is better than the Gorgon, but the fact of the matter is that we did win 2 nil against good opposition. Even though the Gorgon is heavy and awkward it might still be easier to aim than the Vindicator with its rear mounted pistol grip.

I don't know, but the fact of the matter is that the Gorgon just basically dominates IRL. The 1200, and possibly the Vindicator, are better than the Gorgon, generally speaking, but I'd argue that the Gorgon has more potential. An analogy that everyone might understand would be the CPS 1500 vs the SS 300. Generally speaking I would bet on the 1500 with no prior knowledge of the battle's circumstances, but if you told me that two veterans who were subject matter experts on their specific guns were fighting, I would bet on the 300.
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Re: JJA Duels

Postby SEAL » Thu May 28, 2015 7:00 pm

Well unlike the Gorgon, the Vindicator actually did impress me because it definitely has the power of a small CPS blaster (well, that's 'cause it is a small CPS blaster). I used to just think of it as a Vanquisher with a bigger nozzle. But it handles even worse than the Gorgon, and is probably the least comfortable blaster I've ever used (aside from my old APH of course). Would be very interested to see a matchup between them. WW heavyweight smackdown, haha.

I would still like to fight with the Gorgon some more in order to truly believe that it can outmatch small CPS. 'Cause like, the Gorgon has a less powerful stream, roughly equal range, and worse ergonomics than your standard 1000/1200/2100. The only advantage it has is field life, which doesn't really matter in most wars. If anyone has a working one that they want to part with for a decent price, let me know and I'll put it to the test.

Other matchups that would be cool to see are Colossus vs. Charger, Vindicator vs. Pulse Master, Gorgon vs. Pulse Master, Waterlord vs. Vanquisher, Waterlord vs. Sphinx, Waterlord vs. Colossus, etc.
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