Frozen Fury 3 [New Haven CT] November 28-30th, 2014

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:18 pm

I think you're confusing the difference between active loadout vs. reserves. We each carry reserves, which may or may not be permitted for use during a game. The rest is your loadout; something that stays on you at all times. That loadout could be a single CPS 2700, or a CPS 1000 and 2 liters in backup bottles. Having the 2700 backed by those bottles would be too heavy for most players, which makes it an irrelevant case. Point is, you carry less water during a game than you bring into the field. Output (and pump output over time) affect field life directly, given that each player has a maximum amount of water they're able or willing to carry. This does not account for ergonomic differences, but still stands.

The only valid argument against loadout bottles in this case is refill time from reserves. We don't want too much delay between game times. I think the best solution to this is to simply carry smaller bottle reserves that fit into the gear you carry, so bottles are simply swapped instead of using one large bottle to fill smaller ones. Another alternative is a backpack mod. Point is to reduce downtime between games for refilling.

Field life is difficult to measure effectively. You have to look at all factors: overall capacity (including backpacks/bottles that are part of the loadout), pump volume rate over time, output, tap shot count, etc.

If you want variety, an arbitrary ban list based on questionable factors doesn't do much good. The focus should be on discouraging individuals from choosing loadouts that run out easily.

That said, I do agree to avoid high output due to the cold, but it is also one of the primary factors of field life (as is total capacity). Your specific mention of the 2700 on 2x shows that. Also, no one would use a Max-D 4k without carrying some backup water, but carrying that doesn't magically prevent them from also hauling in a backpack of reserves. The real concern here would be reloading and how much water gets spilled, particularly during a game. (A valid reason for not relying on constant refills, although this is less of a problem for proper reservoirs like on CPSs.)

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby DX » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:31 am

At this point I am leaning toward yes, allowing 2700s on 2.5x and the such in the interest of water capacity. And no, we can't just carry infinite water into these abandoned places, it looks very suspicious if anyone sees that. A backpack of bottles may not be out of place, but everyone carrying full backpacks and visible bottles looks fucking strange, and strange is what leads to police calls. "Concerned neighbor" psychology is all about presentation, not the actual activity itself. We could even be using like real guns, if it doesn't look unusual, no one would give us a second thought.

Downtime will happen while refilling no matter what you do, unless you use refilling under fire tactics, which only work if you outnumber your opponent. Or, we play long rounds and expect players to refill during them, not putting any buffer time between rounds. However, anything with downtime like resetting flags or walking to another playing area is the most optimal time to refill, simply by nature. The buffer time is unavoidable, so you might as well have people refill during it.

Field life is easy to measure relatively - take the no-refill shot pace of the most conservative shooter for z game. The actual stats don't really matter - if no one paces slower than x player using y blaster during z game, that is your max field life for that blaster in that gametype. Whether it carries 2000mL or 200mL does not matter, what matters is how fast people use that water supply. Logic dictates that the 2000mL gun will always last longer, but that assumes that the relative nozzle size ratio is different. But, the ratio can be the same and the theory no longer works. In other words, if the gun with 2000 will expend 50% of its water in the same amount of time that the 200 one will, the smaller capacity gun is better, as it uses less water overall and that's less to carry. This is just something to think about. A 2700 on 2.5x will always outlast a 1200, NOT because it carries more water, but because the 1200's nozzle is 4x or 6x. If they expended water at the same % rate, the 2700 would waste water overall. To match that rate, a 1200 would need a very small nozzle that probably wouldn't be effective, so ultimately we end up back in favor of the 2700, but this isn't necessarily the case for every gun. Cutting down output on something like a 2000 vs a 2700 would produce better outcomes for the 2000. Of course, any pair of users will almost certainly not expend water at the same rate even with the same ratio, so that's why this is not entirely a stats thing, it's mostly a people thing.

I still strongly prefer a refill source on-site, for the peace-of-mind it brings knowing we can never run out, and to reduce the amount of equipment carried in. Again, the less we carry, the more likely we get away with it no matter who we encounter along the way in. There is still plenty of time to keep looking for sites and even to look for new playing areas at the backup site (Northgate). I know people got kind of bored of it, but it's legal, has on-site water, and abandoned buildings. It's also a 1,000+ acre park, of which we used maybe 20 acres.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:03 am

I don't think the shooter can be at all factored into any objective metric of field life. There's too many variables there, not just on how the person plays, but on how they play under different conditions on which blaster. Lower ranged blasters need more shooting against some opponents on attack/defend situations, especially in cases where the player is outnumbered.

We'll definitely look different playing than walking in. There will be few, if any backpacks at that time. I can see where wearing bottle packs adds to the suspicious appearance of the group while going in, but less so during a game. Although I probably have to switch to fanny packs instead of paintball pod pouches, or those bottle straps that Scott has. Unfortunately, there's not that much water that can be carried and still made to look like normal drinking water or otherwise non-suspicious gear.

Anyway, there's no way I'm going to get my 2700 a small nozzle (to replace the drilled one) and shipped in; it's too large to deal with. The Vindicator has awful handling, so I'm reluctant to ship in and use that. Carrying a bunch of snall Max-D's is awkward and might look weird. Perhaps I could try the Orca or something... It's been a while.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:17 am

It's funny, I think Scott and iSoaker are the only ones not bothered by the vindicator's handling. It's good that we are recognizing the multitude of factors that go into field life. The playor factor is always real, but an agressive player will typically play agressive no matter what he's using. The tap shots per tank are meant to give us a general guide. The numbers are for quarter second shots, so the only real exception to this is 150, which gets more tapsshots cuz the trigger is quicker; but the 150 will still get less than double the number shown, my guess being about 50% more unless you're Rob. My thoughts are ultimately to allow everything less than a 5x nozzle, unless its field life is around that of a 1200 or less. Also, id find carrying a loaded 2700 and 2 bottles not much more difficult than carrying a loaded 1000 and 2 bottles. Lastly, forgive the lack of paragraphs, my phone is ancient and im just happy enough that i get strong service in nc and can post, unlike in ms. Super lookin' forward to this war!
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:15 pm

I've been talking to CA99 (outside the thread) and I agree with him that the 2700 should not be allowed, it is very large and would hold too much water compared to anything else. On the other hand, I think guns like the 1000 and 1200 should be allowed, they have high output and run out fast, but if the user plays conservatively it could work. Instead of everyone getting a limited amount of water for the day, I think it should be a limited amount of water per round, you can use a CPS 1000 if you want, but if you run out before the end of the round, you have to sit out and then your team would be down a man. I don't really have a big opinion on stuff, so I don't really care that much, right now my Vindicators are broken too, so I can't even use them. Hopefully I can get them fixed by the war, they really just need lubricant, but silicone doesn't work and I haven't gotten to the hardware store to ask for something else yet.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:27 pm

Tell me if I'm understanding this wrong, but Scott and Sam are seeing the amount of water that the 2700 holds as a huge advantage, and your main opposition to it being used is that you see it as not being fair? Do you think the 2700 on 2x would have a large advantage over a 1000? So, equality of weapons involved is the most important to you guys then? Just trying to see what y'all are concerned with.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:54 pm

There are a few concerns here:

- Blaster balance. A 2700 can match a 1000, but isn't so fair against something like an Orca. That said, the real problem here is...

- Choice. If some subjective estimation of field life is required, I can't choose to take a 1000 and conserve shots against a 2700, I have to pick some low output blaster.

- Water usage: Everyone (or at least every team) MUST have backup water fairly distributed. If we are playing more than rivalry games, the best way is to divide the water up by player. That means players can choose lower field life blasters if they play smart and conservatively. We need reasonable consequences for running out before the day ends, but I like Scott's idea of limiting refills per round, which ensures that no one runs out for later games.

I want the rules and constraints to be fair for everyone without favoring specific armories. At least with the light primaries rule, we have some good idea on where to draw that line. Both teams have XP 150's and sufficient alternative blasters to match up to them. A 2x nozzle limit works too, and is more objective than the light primaries definition and far more objective than the field life one.

Bottles can be concealed, carried in pockets/fanny packs, etc. I don't think carrying 2 fanny packs looks that suspicious, and I'm assuming we at least have to bring in 2 backpacks for the backup water that a lot of people will share. I might need a raincoat/suit that makes me look less like some weird spec ops guy though. xD

I'm not even sure what to pick at this point though. Any-angle blasters (CPS/HP) are nicer for CQB, but I don't know what the area looks like and how much open-fighting there will be. Best to just pack for open-fighting, in which case I don't have many good options to take on a 2700 with, unless I attach a nozzle to mine and haul it over in a giant box. Ideally, I'd like a CPS 1000/1200/2100 stock with a 2x nozzle.

I much prefer the nozzle limit rule. Anyone who cheats and switches nozzles can simply not have their shots called. A small CPS with a 2x has capacity comparable to mid-sized air pressure blasters (XP 150, 310, MD6k), but, you know, it's CPS. But I'm not exactly crazy about nozzle modding those and shipping them over either.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby SEAL » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:43 pm

Users win wars, not guns. Regardless, the 2700 really isn't all that threatening on 2.5X. Mine hit around 37-38 feet on that nozzle. Yeah, it holds a s***ton of water, but that's kinda the idea. We don't want people to run out of water quickly (if we're fighting at the refinery, that is). I don't care if we allow small CPS or not, but if we do, chances are almost everybody will want to use them. This not only gives no variety (which can lead to more stagnant fights), but we'll be running dry by noon.

If 2700s are allowed, I already said that I wouldn't be using mine. I would lend it to a less-experienced player to even out the playing field. Though I'm not entirely sure what I would use because my working arsenal is very limited at the moment and I don't really have much time to fix anything. I'll probably need to borrow stuff, especially if I can get a few guests to join us.

We need to make a schedule/playlist.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:54 pm

All I'm asking is, can we get at least a halfway decently objective and concrete means of whitelisting?

- Nozzle limit.
- Minimum total capacity requirements.
- Actual rules/definitions on what would appear too suspicious. Bright fanny packs a problem? Half liters in pockets a problem? Maximum number of people who can carry something other than a blaster? How about carrying more blasters if additional bottles/containers/backpacks look too suspicious?
- Field life based on actual stats: combination of output, pump volume, and total capacity.

Can we define any of these at all?

If not, well whatever. I'm not in the mood to ship more things around and/or get checked luggage. Loaning has always been easier anyway, and I can't see gaining much from bringing over my gear. As long as the water supply distribution is fair (i.e. we're not feeding any backup water supply to the 2700 to allow it to spam the 2.5x incessantly), then it's whatever.

DX, let me know what to bring for that CPS 10k pump and I'll bring it over. Maybe repair it Friday or Monday as well if there's time.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:47 pm

Rob is probably not going to have the time or the gas to do much more scouting prior to the war, so it looks like a good chance that we will be at the Refinery and at the local school with Paine as the back up. With that being said, field life will still be a very real issue, it looks like there is no getting around that. At the same time, we can't get so overly picky to the point that we are telling people how much they can and can't fire per round. So, maybe a good compromise would be to divide water up by team instead of individual, and then let each team figure out how they want to doll it out. I also really don't think anyone will cheat by switching to a banned nozzle. If you want a nozzle limit then I suggest 4x and less and that people can use guns with larger nozzles so long as they limit their nozzle choice to less than 5x. 2x with guns that only have 2x or smaller nozzles is way too restrictive as I'm pretty sure that an XP 250 on 4x is decently equal enough to a Blazer on 3x or a CPS 2700 on 2x. Each has their own unique advantage, which will make fighting more interesting. Furthermore, not everyone can be running around the field with XP 150s, which really go through water a lot faster than something like a Gorgon or PPB BTW, and not everyone has 150s or Colossi or whatever else has only a 2x nozzle or less.

I really don't think that we should allow small CPS unless people do some kind of nozzle mod to give it a smaller nozzle size. Remember that the 3000 and 3200 basically ran out of water after just 2 rounds of urban fighting last year.

Right now I'm really looking into hooking up Aquapacks to Arctic Blasts (and increasing the stream nozzle size to like 2.5x or something) and or an SC 600. This would really help with field life. Also, I disagree with the whole idea that a backpack or larger reservoir is the same thing as carrying in a bunch of bottles. I can easily carry in a fully loaded Aquapack Devastator with a 3L backpack, clip the gun to my belt, and still carry in 2 more 3L for everyone to use for refilling. If you're bringing in a loaded 150 you can only carry 1 3L. If you want to bring a backpack and carry more I can just as easily put a school backpack on top of my Aquapack and still carry more water. That's not to say that people shouldn't bring 150s, but that guns with larger reservoir capacities do help out in the long run. Yes, they require more water to refill, but you will be bringing in more water to begin with. If you want to bring fanny packs with mini bottles that's a great idea, I encourage that. But it doesn't mean that it's a better option than a 2700. I really think that guns like the 2700, 4100, 250, Vanquisher, Gorgon, 1-3-5, Arctic Blast with Aquapack, Tigershark, Blazer, etc. will be our best options. That's not to say that people shouldn't be allowed to bring 270s or MD 6000s or Colossus 2s if they want, I think those will still be good options. Variety will make it fun.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:06 pm

Some notes to the above:

The 3200 I used didn't quite get a full fill. Not sure about Rob's, but I think the tube on the 3000 was leaking. The 3200 lasted pretty well, and I recall the 3200 I used still had some water left at the end.

The water ration by team is good, but assumes we'll only play rivalry games there. If that's the case, I think that alone is a fair deterrent to overusing water, regardless of what blasters are chosen.

Rob did not like the backpacks, so I'm not sure how a SS branded pack affects that, if at all.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:12 pm

Wait, since when is a CPS 3200 considered a "small" CPS? When I think small CPS, I think of something like the Arctic Blast or WW lightning. Anyways, I have a lot of guns that I can bring to loan out, but many of them are broken (easy fixes though). I may or may not get around to working on them, but if we need more loaner guns I can making getting them operational a priority. I like the idea of water rationing per team, but I still think we should divide it up between rounds. I know some are skeptical about bringing in backpacks full of water, but even if we all had them, I think they would still be less suspicious then the guns themselves.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby the oncoming storm » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:21 pm

I like scotts idea of rationing water and letting indivuals decide what they can/will use

That brings me to the point of water supply, my idea is to use 5 gallon solar showers, and just stagger entry a bit to prevent any someones from seeing a large group and getting as supitous.

Water would be rationed by player evenly to use at their discretion and not to be shared at all.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:45 pm

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just meant that if the 3000 ran out after 2 rounds of urban fighting guns like the 1000 and 2100 will run out even faster. I didn't mean it was a small CPS.

Right now I have packed my Blazer, 600, and Devastator. I also have another Devastator, another 600, 2 PPBs, and a Gorgon in repair. Technically the Gorgon works, it's just hella annoying when it randomly starts shooting when or near HPL. Kind of like my 100, which I'm not packing, is technically still functional (tried it out yesterday) in that you can pump it up and shoot it, but I haven't fixed the snapped barrel yet, so I can't really aim. I figure I can fix at least a few of the guns before the war, but now that I think of it I probably won't need more than 3 guns anyway, because that's one for me plus 2 loaners and I think that at least Sam and Rob can furnish their own weapons. Looks like we will be good after all. This will certainly be an interesting war, and I think a very fun war. There will probably be a lot of rare guns being used, but in my opinion that makes it more fun.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby DX » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:48 pm

A couple problems have arisen. Ben has a lot of schoolwork due around the time of the war and is of uncertain status. Pot Barons, the show I've been working on for the past 3 months, is premiering on Nov 30th (10 PM), with a sneak peek on the 28th (midnight). It's too early to know yet, but if there are any premiere events taking place, I absolutely need to go attend all of them. If we keep the war on, and I pick Sam up from the airport, note that I am driving directly to an event if there is one, there would not be enough time to go home. Sam enjoys the green stuff anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. I don't know how open the thing would be, though - the most recent event required tickets and suits. Pot Barons may be a bigger deal given its length and network.

I honestly don't know what will happen. This is perhaps the most uncertain time of my life. I am taking FCPX classes in early December, while continuing in limbo mode, neither an intern nor an employee. I am still wrecked from handling mission-critical material this week with seriously tight deadlines, I worked Sunday night/Monday morning from 9 PM to 6 AM and then Monday from 1 PM to 8 PM. Regardless of what happens, we probably will have to scale down Frozen Fury to just Saturday.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:47 am

Image

Pretty much my reaction lol. People are so busy these days.

So what good are these events if I can't actually have any green? lol. We already do enough questionable shit in League events. Well, it'll be good to check out the TV show anyway. History in the making.

Edit: We could actually Nerf on Sunday or something if people who don't want to aren't going to stick around.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:17 pm

Actually, I just cleared things up on my end. I have to turn in 2 final projects before Thanksgiving. I completed the third yesterday. I take one final exam before Thanksgiving and then 3 after I return from Connecticut. This way I can actually stay for an entire week instead of driving up for 17+ hours and having 3-4 days then driving back for 17+ hours. I will be there.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:01 pm

Plane tickets are way too damn expensive to be playing with all these uncertainties. Let's figure out a few more things before we start throwing final words around, or else I'll resort to posting more cat reaction pictures.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby SEAL » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:12 pm

I'm pretty much absolutely going to be there for at least one day (though it looks like there might be only one anyway) at this point. Life has beaten me up and tossed me into a dumpster, and I've decided it would do me good to get out there and have a grand spankin' ol' time shooting water at people in low temperatures. So add meh.

I suppose you're too busy to come up with a schedule, huh? How 'bout I do it? :) Of course, I could probably only do that if we held the event somewhere closer to me, like the Letchworth Village power plant. I'm liking that idea better than the refinery; there is a stream right there, and it looks like a better battleground (the catwalks have to be off-limits though). Getting in might be difficult, but I think we can do it if we park at a nearby school and unload everybody. As a bonus, we could fight at the school at night. It is a bit far from DX's house, but you have to weigh the pros against the cons. There's also the chemical plant, but I need to re-scout it and as far as I know there aren't any safe water sources there... That makes it no different from the refinery, only it's a longer drive and might be harder to get into. However it's way more epic. Again, weigh the pros against the cons.

I'm willing to co-host and help set up the schedule if you're game. I can whip something up over the weekend. As busy as I am, you've probably got your hands even more full. I ain't ever gettin' no job like that, that's fo' sho'. How is "I Hate my Butt" coming along? That sounds like a more fun show than one about a bunch of plants... Which reminds me, if anyone plans to hit up Mary Jane during this war, for the love of God please don't play on my team. :P
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:43 pm

We already know the schedule you're going to come up with. Here, I'll just fill it out for ya.

- Rivalry OHS

=p

All kidding aside, I could probably try to come up with something as well, or at least rip one to shreds if I don't like it.

We do enough illegal shit to not need the weed, but it's always great as a victory party thing. Save half a pressure chamber for the bong after the game! Btw, I've been owned at backyard water wars by friends who had a hit or two before playing. I'd be more worried about drinking lol.

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