Frozen Fury 3 [New Haven CT] November 28-30th, 2014

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:02 pm

I personally don't value the time spent refilling during a game that much more than the time spent filling between rounds. The problem with downpour was having to go all the way back to refill, but that would've happened during longer rounds anyway. With the refinery, the game is going to end up being centered around stealing opposing teams' water supplies, or seeing who runs out of water in a round first. (If we ban access to stashes, which we need to, to an extent.) We need games that are actually structured to accommodate setups like this.

Regardless, we'll end up doing a mix of OHS and objective. Not sure how far up the plate 1-flag is, but it's had a good history in close quarters type gameplay, so I think it has a high chance of making in our games. There's a lot of defensible positions without being OP, if I recall correctly from conversations with Rob.

Edit: Ruh oh!
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby Alfatrooper » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:42 pm

I am going to try to make it on Saturday. I am cool with playing on Robert's team during rounds. Are any of these blasters good? Only the grey one is working. The green one has a leak and I am not sure what the problem is with the purple one. They had been sitting in my neighbor's garage for several years so I was amazed they even worked.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:49 pm

By grey one do you mean silver? (the two right ones both look grey to me) if so that is the best one of the bunch so you should be fine!

---I've been putting some thought into how we can manage water supplies on the battlefield. Assuming it is below 32 degrees, what if we put all extra guns/water bottles in backpacks with a bunch of hand warmers? We might have to switch them out every few hours (I don't remember how long they last) but it would keep stuff from freezing.
---For game types, I really like the idea of CTF with "unlimited" captures and no taking back flags. We could use two colors of cation tape so that teams couldn't just make their own flags (not that I would expect this group too). The idea of making hits count for one and flags ten is also nice, I'd kind of like to do both. I'd also be fine with doing two hour rounds, we can try four hours if you really want, but I'd say we should stick with two as it would allow us to try more game types. Only thing with long rounds though is that the teams need to be at least somewhat balanced. If they are a little unbalanced it can actually be fun and quite challenging for the underdog team, but I just don't want it to be this unbalanced: Bailey, SEAL, chief, Duxburian vs. AMBUSH, CA99, scottthewaterwarrior - throw in the fact that we were outgunned too and it really wasn't fun. Unbalanced teams are only fun if the underdogs have some chance of winning.

There was talk about using blasters to help with getting people up in the morning. I like the idea of starting fighting early, but that really starts with going to bed early. You can probably get me up at 5am, but if we were up until 12am then I'm not going to be able to battle. I think those blasters would be better used as "encouragement" to make sure certain people (totally not me) don't stay up so late.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:09 pm

I think counting hits in CTF and other objective games just makes it too complicated, where everyone has to remember hits at the same time as worrying about an objective.

Outnumbered games have to be fine tuned, and should probably only be done at night. They definitely don't work in OHK, and only work in OHS if there's enough lower skilled players on the larger team, or if the playing area permits a lot of opportunities for the smaller team.

As for staying up late, not my fault I don't get to talk to Scott more often lol.

@Alfatrooper: Drop a new thread on the blasters forum, so we can help you with repairs there. It'd be better to keep this thread about Frozen Fury. As mentioned, we provide loaners if you don't have working blasters (I've mooched off others' loaners the most so far, despite having probably the 3rd largest armory of our group), but we'll also help you get what you have up and running. Anyway, in a nutshell, we need to know where the leaks are and more details about them in general. The grey (CPS 2100) and torquise (XP310) are good for our wars. CPS 2100 is good for what we refer to as "anything goes" (a.k.a. heavy primaries), and the 310 is good for "light primaries". The purple (XP Backfire) is more of a novelty item and isn't as useful in our games. It's usable in light primaries, but has no redeeming qualities that we'd recommend one.

Edit: Flight booked! I'll be there on Friday in the late morning/noon, and leaving Monday at noon. DX, I PM'd the flight info. Scott, you're welcome to help me out again as well with getting to/from the airport. =)

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:45 pm

I've had no problems with counting hits and flag captures in previous wars. We never had unlimited flag captures in those rounds, but I still don't think it would be a problem. In the past we used to write down whenever we got hit, and in the first community war we just relied on integrity and called out the score out loud. Assuming we are respawning at a base there is no reason we couldn't write down every time we got hit. Considering this is going to be a more urban battle on a smaller battlefield it should be completely feasible. No one will be having to run half a mile back to record that they were hit or anything. The battlefield, as always with Frozen Fury, will be pretty small unless we end up playing at Paine.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby DX » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:58 am

I took many high quality pictures of the refinery site this evening. It's larger than it looks on satellite maps, teams could easily start on opposite sides and be unable to see each other. The idea I had was to have a Nerf war there on Sunday, with water on Saturday. With people leaving on Sunday, it would make more sense to try and get nerfers to keep the numbers high enough to play something. The refinery looks like it would play to NIC style Nerf quite well. There is a 2nd floor area that would be good for a "Hang 'em High" kind of attack/defense game.

I also want to float the idea of playing "Around the World" later on Sunday evening or night. Basically, there are two teams, we drive around to different parks and fight one attack/defense round at each place. If the attackers win, they remain the attacking team in the next battle. If the defenders win, they switch roles and become the attackers in the next battle. The objective can be whatever = hits, flags, something else?

I went into work tonight to help with Pot Barons episodes (Monday mornings are deadlines for rough cuts, fine cuts, etc). Evidently there are no trains eastbound out of Stamford between 2:34 and 6:45 AM, so I am stuck at the train station. Won't be able to do anything on Monday except sleep, so I'll post the pictures Monday night if I'm feeling ok.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:25 am

I'm not interested in nerf at all, but if it gets more people for Saturday, bring it. Did they give you today off for going in late?
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby SEAL » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:10 pm

Yeah, I don't know if I would come down for a Nerf war unless I had almost nothing going on.

But the big news is, chief and I scouted the chemical plant. Sorry DX, but I decided to go without ya because I don't know when I'll be freed up again. (Plus I was really bored this morning.) And WOW! This place is now at the top of my dream battleground list. It is absolutely insane. It's basically an enormous jungle of pipes, catwalks, tanks, and some buildings. The entire area isn't that large, but there's just so much there. You could easily fight all day there without it getting old, and since it's not that big an area, there's more chances of bumping into the other team.

As for whether or not it's possible to fight there...well that depends. We did not see one person around during our whole time there (a little over 2 hours), but it does look like people go there. It's also next to a pretty busy road (though it's not visible from the inside), making getting in and out a little difficult. There are more possible ways in, but we haven't tried them. Where we parked was very close, but also perfectly innocent (it's the parking lot for a baseball field and rail trail). I do think it's possible to fight there, but it would have to be planned very carefully. Funnily enough, I did not see one posted sign, but there is a chain link fence with barbed wire. It might be worth a trip back if I can find the time; DX could come and we could reassess it.

Here are some teaser pictures. I took over 150 (a record for me, I think) so I won't be sorting through them for a while.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:27 pm

Perhaps to the dismay of most of the community here, I'm loving the Nerf idea. I know Rob and I are probably the only ones who'd want to play it, but that's what happens when so many people are dropping out half a day for something we schedule regularly. I don't see too many alternatives. The refinery looks like it'd be really fun for Nerf too, but I'd prefer having the strict RoF rules in place to make the dartsmithing a bit easier. (As in front load, speedload, or breechload only, maximum of 2 darts per speedloader. No turrets, no hoppers, no magazines, no clips, etc. Stock class/darts may or may not be exempt from this rule depending on how many darts we want to leave behind.) We also might want to restrict to #6 slugs and 300 or 350 FPS.

Regardless, due to the lack of interest from our group, it may not work out. Projectiles also give more fuel to dickhead police, should we encounter any. Most NIC-class blasters don't look like toy shelf items at all.

The chemical plant looks interesting. And by that, I mean it looks nucking futs. Lots and lots of unattackable areas; we'd probably need water balloons, but those tend to be useless anyway.

Anyway, let's make this work. At this point, I've been the most flexible in regards to what we do, and know it'll be fun either way. We know Frozen Fury isn't about maneuver warfare, we know we can't drag the nephews into 6-hour OHS rounds, and we know we want more players on Sunday to make it work. We have 2 potentially fantastic locations, and I'm sure we can come up with something for night wars this time. If the main complaint of Pandemonium was insufficient battle time, then let's just get those night rounds in!

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:48 pm

Good news! My prof says I can take the exam Tuesday which means I will be able to fight Sunday too!
To be honest, I don't really care if we do water or Nerf on Sunday, I haven't made much effort to get into Nerf on my own, but doing it with a big group of people I know would be the perfect introduction. I will probably have to barrow guns though, unless you think my modded Night Finders will do, even then, I only have stock darts so will need to borrow ammo.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:49 pm

I'm not sure what I can bring through TSA other than PVC pipes and fittings (for the barrels/wyes/hoppers). This is where all the NIC's efforts towards non-metal darts come in; they won't get picked up and look suspicious. That said, I've gotten streamlines through the scanners before. I have to pay extra for a check-in bag and only get a carry-on (at least in most cases), so the process is shittier. I might just get a check-in bag and haul some blasters over. I'd pay up the extra rate than have to deal with shipping things and waiting for them to get back, although lost luggage isn't fun to deal with either...

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:00 pm

That's great news Scott! Brandon, did you go into the big building in the first picture?

I will not be participating Sunday. Not interested in Nerf at all.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:45 pm

lol, looks like we're getting even fewer players for the whole weekend at this rate...

Let's get a head count for Sunday water wars first. Anyone? Are the SEALs making it to Sunday for water wars? It's the middle of October and we should have all that figured out by now.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby SEAL » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:07 pm

Yeah, I went into the big building. It's pretty sweet, though a little open. There are plenty of places where you could camp out way up high, but we'd obviously have to restrict them if we fought there. If all the fighting took place on the ground level (or near enough), it'd be awesome. I'd skip a test to fight there, haha.

If we have a water war on Sunday, I'll do my best to make it, but if it's a Nerf war, I probably won't bother unless I'm completely free. You also have to remember that it costs money to drive down there.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:59 pm

SEAL wrote:You also have to remember that it costs money to drive down there.


I'm sorry, I was unaware of the undue burdens of transportation that these league events put on you. :goofy:

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:09 pm

I'm just not sure if I can come Wednesday regardless, so you may want to have a Nerf war if that gets more people on Saturday. Basically it takes 17 hours to drive from Mississippi to Connecticut, so we are basically allocating 2 entire days to driving; giving us only 4 or 5 if I can take Monday off to spend with family. It's probably not a good idea to allocate 50% of our vacation with family to fighting water wars. It would be different if we were staying for 10 days like last year.

But this is a water warfare forum, and Frozen Fury is a water war, so let's get this thread back on topic.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:52 pm

Alright, so there's been a bit of talk off scene about weapons restrictions for battling at the Refinery. I figured that it would be good to bring the discussion here, maybe we can get some good ideas off everyone's involvement. The issue is this. There is no water on site. We will have to bring in water, but even so, we stand a high chance of running out. If at all possible we will try to cache water there the night before, and then see if maybe everyone can bring in something around the size of a 2L along with their primary arm. We will be fighting from 9 in the morning until 4 something in the afternoon before changing locations. So, we want the ammo to last as long as possible before having to exit the site to refill (15 mins away).

So far we have thrown around a variety of ideas, from medium only (CPS 1200, Vindicator, etc.), to light only (XP 150, XP 270, Python 2), to medium but no CPS (Gorgon, 250, etc.) to even just white listing various blasters that can last the distance (CPS 2700 on 2x, 275 on dual 1x, etc.). I think it may have to come down to just white listing, saying explicitly in a list what guns we are ok with. Another issue that has been raised is that it may not be fair to use a medium gun such as a Gorgon or a large gun like 2700 on 2x vs people with 150s, Python 2s, etc. My take on this is that this is no less fair then Rob using a 2000 or me using a 300 vs a guest fighting with a 1000, which happens all the time. I would even argue that that is possibly even less fair than Scott using a Vindicator vs a guest using a 150. So, my take is that I'm not really that worried about size restrictions so much as having enough guns that will last and that will be fun. Thus, I see no problem with Vindicators or Gorgons when 1000s aren't allowed, because they will last 5x longer; but I also concede that I'm not making the final decision on this, and that even if I was it would be best to hear from everyone.

With that in mind, I thought I'd throw in some stats from Hydrowar on the aproximate max number of tap shots per tank (overloaded) each of these guns gets. We can use this to help decide which guns we should allow or not.

Vindicator between 960 (smallest nozzle) and 74 (largest)
Gorgon ~630 on smallest to 110 on largest
CPS 2700 on 2x ~320
XP 250 ~315 on 1.5x, ~118 on 4x
Blazer ~300 on 1x to ~100 on 3x
XP 310 ~300 on smallest to ~100 on largest
XXP 275 ~229 on dual 1x, ~101 on dual 2.5x
Python 2 ~212 on small nozzle to ~75 on burst
XP 270 ~158
Colossus between ~156 and ~122
Monster/4100 on 2x ~113, ~79 on 4x
XP 150 ~88
CPS 1200 ~71
CPS 1000 ~64
CPS 2100 ~59

If we can expect a CPS 1000 to last through 1 round of CTF then we should expect a Colossus to give us at least 2 rounds per tank. If we bring in enough water to refill each gun twice that means that we could get 6 rounds out of a Colossus and 3 out of a 1000 for all the water we brought in.

I think we should try to calculate how much water we expect to use per round and look at deciding from there. I understand that there is no way of being 100% accurate, but I'd rather not show up with a bunch of guns that leave us empty at 10:15 and then empty of all the water we bring in by noon.

I gotta go to class, but I will add more guns later.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby SEAL » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:31 pm

I agree that we should include guns that last long, regardless of size. I think we should include all the guns you listed above (though perhaps not the light CPS), and just give the more powerful ones to the less experienced players. This will have the added benefit of evening things out a bit. While it can be fun to annihilate new players with powerful guns, there's really no challenge in it, and it may be kind of discouraging for them.

If there really is no place to refill, I'd strongly suggest looking for another location. Unfortunately I've realized that the chemical plant doesn't really have any water sources that I know of either. There's a pond nearby, but it's hard to get to, and it's probably contaminated. The Letchworth Village power plant does have a stream very close by, but we'd have to come up with a plan to get in there. I definitely think it's worth looking into.
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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby HBWW » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:42 pm

Why don't we just have one simple rule: If you're out of water, you have to borrow from the team (rivalry), or can't play at all. Allowing a 2700 while banning a 1000 backed by several extra water bottles is just stupid. We need better incentives to choose field life.

We could just limit by output as well. Simple, objective rules that don't favor specific armories or playing styles.

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Re: Frozen Fury 3 [CT/NY] November 28-30th, 2014

Postby marauder » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:27 pm

I always ask what we are trying to accomplish with rules. Then I like to ask if the rules actually accomplish what we've set to accomplish.

For instance, what is the purpose of banning by output? Is the purpose to ensure that we do not run through water quickly? Is it to ensure that we don't get too cold from being hit by large streams of water? Is it to ensure that no players are particularly disadvantaged by having a less powerful gun compared to someone else?

With regard to setting an output limit I think that it would help keep us from getting too cold. Being hit by a 2.5x nozzle, even if repeatedly, is not going to be as chilly as being drenched by a CPS 2000. I would argue that ensuring "fairness" depends on your definition of fairness. Having guns that all have the same nozzle size does level the playing field some, but output is only one factor. You can have a gun that shoots more but doesn't shoot as far or one gun that has longer shot time than the other. At the same time, we don' want everyone running around with the same gun because even if that was possible it would be boring. Having special advantages and disadvantages makes rounds fun. That's why VIP with Tony and Danny is fun. That's why XXP 275 vs Colossus was so fun - one with range the other with output - or why 4100 vs Gorgon was going to be super epic. We don't always want apples to apples.

Now, in regards to whether or not limiting guns by output would keep us on the field longer, I disagree. An XP 250 on 4x has 25% more field life than an XP 150. I also think it would be a catastrophic mistake to limit output at 2.5x. The only guns that I have that shoot less than 2.5x are 2 Storm pistols. Everyone else will be running around with XP 150s, since they are the best gun with that nozzle size (assuming no Zooks or PPBs) and 150s run out almost as fast as 1200s.

Your point about 1000s with extra bottles vs the 2700 is not valid either. The 1000 is still going through water quicker, and thus requires bringing in more bottles. We are trying to be as stealthy as possible and trying to make as quick an entry as possible. We do not need to be taking multiple trips to cars to bring extra bottles. If you want to argue that the 2700 should not be used because it shoots for like 10 seconds on 2x, then ok maybe that's a good point.

This is point in case to why I don't like using "medium only" or "light only" rules for every war. Yes, a Vindicator is as powerful as a 2100, but the Vindicator is also going to last you at least 300% longer which is a huge factor in this war. If this is about equal guns to any of you then feel free to say it. To me this is about equal opportunity (not the same thing) and being able to fight for as long as possible without running out of water.


Let's say we have a team of:
Vindicator
Gorgon
XP 250
CPS 2700 on 2x
Python 2

vs

CPS 1000
CPS 1200
CPS 2100
XP 150
Max D 4000

These teams are fairly equal, yet the latter is going to run out twice as quickly as the first team. The problem here is not that they have to refill during the game, because that might make it interesting; but that our water sources will be depleted much quicker and that we will not be able to fight as many rounds before all our water is gone.
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