2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:52 pm

List of Currently Planned Wars in 2014:
    Soakemore 2014 - Washington DC area - May 30th-June 2nd
    Pandemonium - New York City area - August 15th-18th
    Frozen Fury 2014 - New York City area - November 29th-30th


Time to start one of these for the 2014 season. I know there has been talk of doing wars in the NYC and DC areas, as well as possibly another Frozen Fury and/or a Not-So-Frozen Fury (held earlier in the year), and maybe even an event in Michigan. I do not think I will be doing Downpour again this year (unless there is enough interest), but I will definitely help host any war(s) in the NYC area. Target battlegrounds include Waterbridge and perhaps several abandoned buildings/complexes.

So what we need to do is come up with a list of all planned wars this year, just like last year. Right now we are definitely planning to have at least one war around DC and one around NYC. What else? This thread will only list large events, not meetups. Please use this topic only for coming up with potential wars; where to hold them (the general area), when to hold them, etc. Do NOT post about specific war details like individual rounds, schedules, or whatever. This first post will contain a listing of all wars held this year.

My first thought is that we do one over spring break like we did last year.

Edit: Unstickied now that all 2014 wars have come and gone.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:46 pm

HydroPhobia will be a tricky one. I know I won't be able to host for a week anymore as much as I'd like to. However, I don't think HydroPhobia is even worth having if I can't have people stay around for that much time; MI is a long drive and I'm making everyone stick with the bad drive.

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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:14 pm

as much as I would like to hold or attend a war the NEAREST members M4 and scott still live about 8 hours away by car which makes it imposible for me to attend a war and unlikely for anyone to come if I did attempt to host.
.
Edit (I would gladly host a war if people were willing to drive)
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby DX » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:09 pm

I've decided on the new, not-so frozen Fury - it will be called Pandemonium and take place in August, most likely the 2nd weekend in August. I really want to use the Waterbridge site in Ridgewood, NJ or a Waterbridge-like venue that has yet to be discovered. The Danbury Greenway site in CT needs to be tested before being considered for this war. The only other place I know of with the right kind of reeds is in Greenwich, CT, and it is a bit too small/one dimensional. I'll definitely be scouting for new places during the spring.

Pandemonium will focus on very close quarters chaos in thick vegetation, but will lack the thorn bushes of MoAB. I want it to be a return to a more old school style of water warfare.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:07 am

CA99: Let us know if you do end up hosting and when. Like I said, I would try to go so I could combine it with a fishing trip. (Not 100% yet though.)

the oncoming storm: I would only be willing to drive down there if there were some other reason to go. 8 hours isn't all that far though; it's like 10-11 hours from here to marauder's parents' house in NC, and that didn't stop me from attending two wars there. What I'm getting at is that if we do a war in the DC area again, you should come.

Duxburian: That sounds pretty sweet. Will you be doing Frozen Fury again as well? If so, I definitely recommend doing it earlier, like in November or something.

It looks like my spring break is from March 17th to the 23rd. We should totally plan to have a war sometime then (unless nobody else has spring break then and/or if everyone's busy). The question is where... I'll start the list once we get some more definite wars planned.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:03 am

HydroPhobia is on the chopping block. Consider it not happening in the meantime, but I'll try to get some updates over the next month or 2, maybe sooner. You guys can plan events in the meantime, but the more there are, the less likely I'll be able to have mine assuming I attend all the other ones.

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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby DX » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:34 am

Frozen Fury will still be the abandoned buildings war, but it probably won't be major. Pandemonium will be the major war and Frozen Fury will be a skirmish, unless there is more interest. Abandoned buildings don't work as a venue during warmer weather because of competition from other people. When we scouted Northgate in the fall, the place was totally packed with hikers and the such. If it's earlier, it can't be too much earlier.

It appears that the NYC soakfest is held on the 28th or 29th of June, so that's where that war should be slotted. We need to scout for where to fight on the 2nd day. I was going to do this with Sam, but it snowed and then I got sick.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:55 pm

I got sick too. The whole plan after the weekend fell apart fast, but I did get to explore w/ SEAL bros and got a TON of Micro Darts lol.

NYC soakfest varies every year. It may just depend on when the weekend is.

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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:54 pm

I am planning on having Soakemore again, I have a lot of ideas but haven't nailed any of them down yet. I am going to invite more local friends/relatives, so the logistics of transportation and sleeping arangments is being a real pain. I will probably need some help planning it out if sSakemore is going to happen this year, so I will probably make a planning thread for it later.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:41 am

I added a list to the first post. Nothing is definite yet, but at least we can start to get an idea of what's in store for this season. I added Frozen Fury anyway because I think an abandoned buildings war is a good idea, and I agree that they're better in the colder months; especially since most of the foliage is gone, making woods warfare less fun.

I am seriously thinking about hosting a hardcore all-day war over spring break. It would involve camping out at the battleground, and each team starts at the crack of dawn, ending when the sun goes down. I'm planning to make it more interesting than simply a long 1HS round, so there would be some different dynamics to it (like maybe some objectives or something). This will not be another Downpour or anything similar; it will be much different than anything we've ever done. Right now I am unsure of where to hold it, but it will be someplace where a round like that would work without being too boring. The question is, are you guys up to the challenge? I'm thinking I would need at least 8 people (4v4). It could be a regular rivalry war, else we can just have a mini-rivalry (basically where we pick teams ahead of time, and those teams can plan together and stuff) if not enough people can make it on one team or the other.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:05 pm

We already have 3 NYC-area/proximity events this summer lol. I could make a 4th one (since I'm generally only taking one day off per war, with one exception), but need to figure out how things will be going for work by then. However, my attendance to a lengthy event ultimately depends on the following factors:

- Duration: I have the following time limits:
· 2 Hours: If the game is really boring and no shooting is happening.
· 4 Hours: If the game's alright, but still mostly consists of wandering around until bumping into opponent.
· 6 Hours: If the game's awesome like urban 1-flag CTF.
­· 8 Hours+: If there are attractive women on my team. =p

All joking aside, I'd probably stick to the 6 hour limit, but this primarily depends if anything interesting is actually happening.

So with that said...

- Plan: I have to see the plan first, and DX's approval would also help. If both of us (the harshest game setup critics, but in completely opposite directions half the time) approve, that's a good sign. A game setup that long is going to need more than just the SEALs' seal of approval. =p

- Arrangements: We need to organize rations, backup plans, etc.

- PT: Some of us (such as Scott or I) need to be in better shape first, or there's going to be a huge tactical disadvantage.


Edit: Forgot to mention on Soakemore: I'd like to stay around for an extra day or two if possible. King's Dominion trip on a Monday or Tuesday would be fun. (I suggested Tuesday so that you won't have to kick other people out or say the farewells too early in the morning on Monday.)

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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby DX » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:50 am

The playing area, rules, and physical fitness of the players determines whether a very long round will succeed or not. That kind of goes without saying, but we're still very much learning how to set these things up.

This was the longest single round I ever played:
Before we had Community Wars, we had failed attempts

The battle lasted around 5 to 5.5 hours, although it didn't really kick into full gear until Nick got there. You could erase the first 2.5 hours without affecting anything - the enemy stalked/hid and we couldn't find them. Can't really blame them, they started with XP 240s and we started with CPS. You kind of have to kill hiding for long periods of time when designing long rounds (so skill levels and soakers should be balanced if possible). The "hunting rule" attempted to do this, although it was never an official rule. The RM followed it pretty well here, continually trying to find and engage the enemy even when up in score. Note how the fighting moved all over the place, we don't get that much in Community Wars. There's probably a lot of factors going into that and I've been doing research into what causes movement vs stagnation when engaged in battle. I know several players want to have battles where the fighting moves around a lot. In Community Wars, we sometimes go a whole 30 minutes fighting in the same spot, while in these old war stories, it was rare for a battle to stay put for 5 minutes, with most not even hitting 2 minutes without shifting. That's really interesting considering how respawn time was 2 minutes and hits being much harder to get, with only the shirt counting. This particular story also shows how you can have a lot of fun with just 3v3. Nowadays, we need at least 4v4 before a round starts getting good.

Also, something I noticed from a 2007 war that never had any significance before:
This was an interesting situation - no one wanted the Initiative. Neither team wanted to attack in a bad area, so there was no offense. There has never been a 0 - 0 tie in the history of Ridgewood water warfare, and the RM decided that there would not be one today. We took up the initiative against our own advantage and returned to the back path, starting an offensive campaign that would last the entire rest of the battle.


Community War long rounds tend to end in 0-0 ties. I looked back at the battle record and can verify that we never achieved a 0-0 tie in any Ridgewood war, skirmish, or even in the era before the RM. How come there are so many now, but there was never even one then? Modern hosts will want to figure out the answers to the movement and scoreless tie questions in order to design long rounds that work.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:52 am

My best guess regarding that is primarily the melting pot: the mix and variety of player skills, backgrounds, playing styles, etc. making team coordination more difficult than before, and making players play more conservatively. There's movement and shooting, but less hits happening. We also need to consider the change in playing areas. Many community war battlefields have had little or no opportunity for ambushing, but even when they do, that potential is not used.

2.5 hours of hiding is not only bad for blasters, it makes for a waste of a plane ticket. We get maybe 18 hours of playtime in a community event if we're lucky, and 2.5 hrs is a substantial chunk of that. We need extended events if we're going to be able to burn that much time out of a game.

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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby DX » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:58 pm

Hence the need for a hunting rule or equivalent. We need to preserve the ability to hide and ambush, but if nothing happens for a while, that team needs to begin moving again. Likewise, we can't let the team that's ahead in score run away to hide. Part of this can't be legislated, though, it's up to both teams to want to attack. If they arrive at opposing hills, something needs to give - one of them either needs to attack or withdraw to another location. That comes down to training and fitness more than terrain - I am more likely to attack when I trust that all of my players can handle themselves and can move quickly without prodding. If multiple people have to stop and think about whether it's a good idea to rush when they hear "RUSH THEM!", and burn 10+ seconds standing still, there's no hope of sustaining offensive campaigns. This is such a headache in Nerf that I usually give up and just solo rush, often ending up in lopsided firefights 50ft or more in front of my team from them being useless. Or, I stay with veteran groups who take these actions on their own, no audible prompts needed.

As I've stated before, there's three major components to decision-making in battle: Identify what you need to do, Decide the best way to do it, and Execute that. In the heat of battle under intense pressure, there need to be just two: Identify and then Execute. (there isn't time to decide, so you memorize a list of common/basic moves and take the first one that comes to mind based on the situation and your experience, your instinct will usually pick the best one or at least the most viable). If I'm yelling at you to move, rush, run away, etc...I've already done the thinking and deciding parts for you, all you have to do is execute, it should take less than 3 seconds if you trust me. I don't give direct orders very often and when I do, it's usually for moves that are necessary given the enemy's positioning. In other words, common sense - "fall back" cause yeah, the enemy is rushing us 4 on 3, or "move up" cause you've fallen out of range, or "take that tree" cause if you don't, the enemy will get it and blow apart our position.

At least on my teams and past teams, any of its players has the ability to give orders to other players or the full team when they deem it necessary. The captain's orders overrule others, but there's never been an incident of conflicting orders, as necessary meant necessary. It's an especially important ability when the team is split up in a sudden and unplanned way, with no clear leadership. Someone, anyone, has to take control and prevent a disaster. Then again, not everyone actually wants to make decisions. When I ask, what should we do? What do you want to do?...I get blank stares at least half the time. So, basically, people don't listen to me, but also don't take charge. This is what's really wrong with modern teams in Community Wars and most Nerf rounds. This is also why there's such little use of tactics in Nerf - the teams are a collection of independent individuals who don't take orders from anyone. Water war teams are dependent on tactics to get hits, in Nerf-like standoffs, it's very difficult to hit anything. We have to act as teams and work together. And then, we need to get on the same page, so orders become less necessary in battle, people acting on common sense and naturally judging where/when to move and how fast, where to position themselves, etc. Then, we can actually have sustained offensives and exciting battles that shift all over a park. I don't want to attack or even withdraw when my team can't perform these actions quickly, as one unit.

I'm still convinced that our long rounds will not work very well, regardless of the terrain and rules, until team cohesion issues are addressed.

</rant>
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby SEAL » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:35 pm

Both teams just need to really want to fight hard and rack up as many points as possible. Forget about simply beating the other team's score; everyone must make it their goal to just get hit after hit after hit. We would need to forget about keeping track of individual player stats, because that makes people not want to risk having their deaths outnumber their kills in the statsheets or whatever. I'm fine with all this, and hopefully others will be too. In this type of war, I definitely want quality over quantity (though no less than eight). However the biggest problem now is finding a good battlefield for an event like this. I don't know how much time I'll have to go exploring either; I go back to school the day after tomorrow.

If I find a promising place, I'll start a thread to gauge interest and plan the thing out. It will have to be set up extremely carefully. Also, if I do host this, like CA99 said there will be four wars in the same area (around NYC) this year. I know some of you want to attend that soakfest in NYC and have a war afterwards, but I'd personally be fine if we scratched it (or at least turned it into just a meetup or something). I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I find huge soakfests like that really boring after not even half an hour. All you do is go around shooting at everyone you see. I don't think I have enough experience to actually drive in the middle of NYC either, so I likely wouldn't even go unless I were to ride with someone else.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:35 pm

If your idea passes through, then I'm up for scraping the soakfest, which is difficult to make much use out of anyway. We can't show off homemades, or the local PD will go nuts, and I don't think anyone else even wants to think about attempting a scenario game taking place in the ensuing soakfest. (I pitched a few ideas, such as a gauntlet run where our players compete to go through the crowd and reach a certain point [perhaps collect hidden flags along the way] remaining the driest. DX is against any and all such ideas.) If we go, we need to seriously consider how we can gain from that event.

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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby the oncoming storm » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:11 pm

F*** the police, if they have problems with homemade water guns: then they deserved to be blasted by all that it holds and more.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby martianshark » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:40 pm

I'm bored. lol

Is there anyone besides me near CA?
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby DX » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:11 pm

It's NYC, probably the 2nd tightest security scene in the country after DC. With over 34,000 officers, the NYPD is the largest municipal police force in the country. Stephen, the entire population of Knoxville (~178,000) could fit on Central Park's Great Lawn several times over, we're talking about a much larger stage here with much larger repercussions if you fuck up with the cops. NY cops deal with so many real, fake, and imagined threats on a daily basis that they don't have time for BS. In other words, the water guns REALLY need to look like harmless children's toys, end of story.

The point of going is not for the soakfest really, it's for finding people who like water guns and striking up enough of a discussion to get them to check out WWN and get involved with the online community. The amount of wars scheduled in the area should be a good selling point. The only reason I'd not want to go is if we can't turnout enough of our more outgoing members, you know, the ones that rhyme with "ten" or "dot". There are logistical issues with the NYC Soakfest, but those could be ironed out later.
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Re: 2014 WaterWar.net Community Wars

Postby HBWW » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:33 pm

I specifically avoided the full abbreviation of their department so that our opinions of them would not go up on Google lol. Oh well...

It should also be noted that they get paid based on how many people they bust. If you frequent the city or live there, you'd better not be one of the races they profile. In LA and Oakland CA, it's about as bad. LA's probably worse; they'll put rounds in a suspicious car without actually seeing anything in it first.

Police (particularly those in crowded cities) are serious business. Unless you're prepared to throw your life away, do not make any risk of getting them involved nor giving opportunity for brutality. Of course, this will vary from place to place and time to time. Boston had SWAT teams illegally going door to door after the marathon bombing. Just recently, a schizophrenic homeless man in CA was beat to death by police. A woman committed suicide in DC by driving towards police lines. Instead of attempting to stop the car (i.e. by warning shots, shooting the tires/engines), they went directly for the driver immediately. The U.S. military is not allowed to do this.

And we need to be careful with the soakfest too. Keep in mind that this is the country where you can be sued for assault for a CPS blast, depending on how many people are doing that in the surrounding area.

Anyway, if you think it's a good promotion opportunity (there are a ton of people going, after all), then perhaps it is worth trying. Homemades will be very difficult because even if you paint it with all the worst water blaster colors of history, someone could see and make out the piping, and freak out accordingly. Perhaps with enough clever adjustments, the look could resemble an SS50, but this will be extremely difficult for 2nd gen homemade blasters.


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