Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:03 pm

I'm pretty lazy, so I'm likely spending the extra money for ordering them (as opposed to getting them printed). If everyone had a smartphone or laptop, I could try to find an online version and save a little money. =p In addition, the expansion packs are not freely available, and the custom printed cards aren't going to be exactly the same as their's.

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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby SEAL » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:54 pm

Why are we spending more time talking about some random card game than the actual war? The game sounds fun, but it's not like it's the main focus of Frozen Fury. Anyway...

DX, have you figured out all the rounds we're going to be playing? I think CTF and Domination are a must for the mansion area, and maybe some interesting HTL-type games (using some of the buildings) that will be different from the boring "attack the hill" variation. For the factory (which still needs a name), standard OHK and OHS would work, and maybe we could do some kind of CTF-type round. I would also like to do a long round somewhere as well (could be rivalry). We don't have to go all-day, but maybe like 3 hours.

I don't really have any updates from my end; I still plan on coming for at least the first weekend, and I'll have anywhere between 1 and 4 others with me (don't hold your breath though). If I have time, I'll definitely be down for hanging out and fighting during the week as well. Not sure about this Nerf war that DX was talking about (are you still doing that?); I'd personally rather have more water battles, unless the plan is to lure the Nerfers in and then bust out the soakers... ;)

I really, really want to fight right now.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:18 pm

@scott: The most common excuses are work and school. Always easy to assume it's one of those two.

@SEAL: After the workout discussion, it was my turn to derail the thread with something slightly-but-not-100% relevant.

Baiting the NIC into a WW would be interesting even if it wouldn't end well. It'd be interesting though. Just don't do that to paintball players because the ammo can freeze over in the winter.

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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby marauder » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:48 am

My friend Jonna says he's going to come, so that means I'm bringing 4 people including myself.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby DX » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:08 pm

Awesome, the more the merrier.

This is what the playlist currently looks like. It's still subject to revision, as I'm trying to work out how long things might take, when to slot lunch, when to refill at the factory, setup, etc.

Friday night: Night rounds if desired.

Saturday:

At the Factory:

Round 1: 2 Flag CTF (East vs West)
1 flag in the East Warehouse, lower level
1 flag in the West Warehouse, lower level

If uneven teams, West gets the extra player as they have one more entrance to cover.

Round 2: CTF Rematch (Switch sides)

If uneven teams, one player will need to volunteer to play as West twice.

Refill Break

Round 3: 5 Base Outpost

Bases marked by PVC sticks on bell reducers, each end of the stick has a different team color on it.

1 stick in the East Warehouse, upper level
1 stick in the East Warehouse, lower level
1 stick on the Central Courtyard Platform
1 stick in the West Warehouse, upper level
1 stick in the West Warehouse, lower level

The team with the most bases at the end of time wins.

Bases start out "neutral" and may be captured in any order.

To capture a base, flip the stick so your team's color is showing. You must write your name and team color in the book next to the base in order to complete the capture. If hit during this process, the base is not captured and you must reset the stick.

Infinite lives, but you can only respawn at a base your team controls. If you have no bases and are hit, you cannot respawn until a surviving teammate captures a base.
Refill Break

Round 4: Outpost Rematch (Switch sides)

Refill Break

Round 5: Protect the VIP (maybe Rivalry)
Ben's nephews are the VIPs for each team. Everyone has unlimited lives except the VIPs, who have 1 life. If your VIP gets shot, you lose.

Round 6: Regular OHS (maybe Rivalry)

Unlimited Lives. However, you are eliminated when you run out of water.

Leave Factory

Lunch

At the secondary site:

Round 7: Uncapped OHS (Rivalry)

Normal OHS, but everyone starts with their guns empty. Main primaries, long round.

Round 8: Friendly OHS
If you get hit, you switch teams after respawning. Team score only. Ends with elimination of one team.

Round 9: Juggernaut OHS/OHK mix

Everyone plays OHS (light primaries), but if you get hit by a juggernaut (main primaries), you are eliminated from the round. Ben's nephews are the juggernauts.

End of Day

Sunday:

At Northgate

Round 10: Regular OHS (Rivalry)

This round is mainly so that players can get a feel for the abandoned estate and see where things are.

Round 11: 7 Base Outpost

2 sticks in the mansion
1 stick in the greenhouse
2 sticks in the middle buildings
1 stick in the side shed
1 stick in the tunnel building

Same rules as Saturday's Outpost rounds.

Refill Break

Round 12: Outpost Rematch (Switch sides)

Round 13: Offense-Defense: 2v2v2v...x OHK around the abandoned estate. Each pair has a veteran and a newer player, the veteran uses a light primary and the newer player uses a main primary. Ends with elimination.

At the secondary set of buildings:

Round 14: 2 Flag CTF

1 Flag at the Barn
1 Flag at the Foundry

Round 15: CTF Rematch (Switch sides)

Refill Break

Round 16: Barn Siege (HTL)

Defend the barn. Defenders have light primaries, attackers have anything goes.

Round 17: Siege Rematch (Switch sides)

Refill Break

Round 18: Lottery OHS (maybe Rivalry)

Normal OHS, but each player draws from a hat to see if they get a light primary, a medium primary, or anything goes. Then they flip a coin to see if they start the round loaded or empty. Team starting positions are at the barn and foundry. Long round.

End of day

Monday: Rounds if desired.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:08 pm

I've got a question, not about the war, but related to it.
I still haven't reinforced the trigger on my 2500. I have it all apart, but have been unable to find a suitable piece of metal to glue to the trigger rod. Does anyone who is coming have anything that could be used to reinforce the trigger? If could you bring it and help me install it on Friday?
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby DX » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:35 pm

I am looking to get 2000/2500 triggers machined out of metal. Probably won't come together by then, but permanent replacement rather than reinforcement is in the works for the future. I also have two spares if anyone's breaks.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:05 pm

Sheet metal, snips, dremel/sandpaper/file, and some good epoxy have worked well for me since I don't have access to a CNC shop. That would be the quickest way to get it working without cannibalizing parts elsewhere.

Great playlist. Much, much better than something like "let's rivalry OHS in endless woods for 8 hours because we're so hardcore!" :goofy:

Edit: Yeah, I know I'm going to get slammed by M4 and/or SEAL for that, oh well.

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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby SEAL » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:17 pm

^Everyone has their own preferred style of fighting; I personally enjoy a more tactical style of fighting as opposed to little restricted-area fights like at Nerf wars. Longer rounds are more like "wars", whereas short Nerf-type rounds are more like "games". That's not to say I don't enjoy shorter rounds (some of them have been great), but nothing compares to an all-day wilderness adventure where you're trying to outwit an extremely tough rival, and will stop at nothing to get the 'W'. There is actual glory to be had in winning a round like that, because you win by being a better team; not by having more powerful weaponry or because of some stupid boundary restrictions, and you can't just be good fighters, but also tactically smart. It challenges you mentally and physically.

Of course, that kind of fighting is certainly not for everyone, and I wouldn't have a war like that with young kids or new players, but for someone like me who's into tactical warfare and loves the outdoors, "Nerf wars with water guns" won't be as much fun for me as a long-term war. However like I said, shorter rounds are still a lot of fun, assuming they are set up well in a good location (they must be fast-paced and intense to be good). The factory and the other places we found all look like they'll be good for fighting, though unforeseeable shat could happen. I'm not sure I like the "lottery" game, as it leaves a lot to chance, but I'll play whatever. I wouldn't make it a rivalry round though. The rest of the schedule looks pretty good; I'm generally not one to nitpick. I just hope you guys can move along fast enough to get everything done. For the millionth time, I suggest everyone bring their own food (those who are flying in can go get some from a local supermarket or something) so we don't have to waste time eating at a restaurant.

So my classes end on the 9th, which is the Monday after the war. I can probably come over on Friday night and stay until Sunday afternoon (I would leave directly from "Northgate"), but it depends on who I bring (some of my friends might not be able to stay overnight). My finals will start on the 12th, but I'm free from the 13th to the 15th, so I could probably hang out and do stuff on one or two of those days, though I likely won't stay overnight or anything. I will talk to some friends soon to see if anyone's up for driving an hour to some abandoned buildings for a water war in December. Cross your fingers!
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby marauder » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:19 pm

Machine shop triggers are a great step forward. The only thing I want more is machine shop firing valves.

I agree that the playlist looks great. How are we going to decide teams for when it's not rivalry? Team captains, randomly generated with a randomizer prior to the war, chosen by DX at the war, chosen by consensus at the war?

My friend William isn't going to be able to come since he's going to be back in NC that weekend. I still have yet to talk to Drew, but I will soon.

As for 8 hours of hardcore fighting out in the woods - oh it's coming! Also, I hope you're looking forward to getting together at least once during the week after and playing some rounds. I have planned for them to be particularly intense and action packed, with constant fighting, and probably a lot of running to, but very little searching through the woods; so you can be happy about that.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:44 pm

I think what we need are game types that can operate effectively in 1-2 hours of gametime instead of 30 mins. This means we need viable water sourcing solutions; we need to setup backpack caches and what not throughout the playing area if natural sources aren't an option. (This was a problem at Downpour and sort of one at Soakemore.) However, some game setups aren't fun after an hour or so, such as many CTF variations. OHS works if the playing area allows for it instead of forcing 2-hour manhunts. No one wants to try multi-stage tactical objectives nor scenario games either, so I guess we'll leave that where it is for the time being.

There's a difference between two teams trying to find and outwit each other, vs. two teams just taking a hike until they happen to bump into each other. The latter is a hobby called hiking, not water warfare. I don't spend $300 on airfare for two days of hiking. MOAB was fine, but if we're talking about 2+ hours of hiking, that's not only boring as hell to some of us, it's also bad for CPS bladders. Point is, sometimes people here overthink games. We misjudge what the other team is going to do, then go way wide out of where they would be for where we think they would be. 1 hour later, no one knows where anyone else is, and both teams did nothing but chase (or camp for) ghosts. Lack of good shooting action and tactical games drive people away from WW. Sometimes, this comes from miscommunication between the two teams' leaders on where the other is going to be, other times, it just happens because that's what certain playing areas tend to do, and that's where certain paths tend to take you. I've dealt with restrictive game boundaries more than anyone here and could tell you how much they suck, but we need to be smarter about our open-play type of games. With objectives, established "base locations" (not necessarily bases in a game) it's nearly impossible for this to be a problem. Unlike in real warfare, we don't have any means to track each other down or figure out where anyone is after beginning a game, because this does not work like real warfare.

^ 8 hours of actual combat is something else though. I'd be up for it once I get my fix of Frozen Fury CQB fast-paced urban warfare.

^^ Good call. I'd like to get something interesting together for after the actual Frozen Fury weekend and put that plane ticket to use, and if you/marauder join in on the weekend after, we could get one last full game together or so.

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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby marauder » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:20 pm

I have some ideas about how to keep the fighting going while keeping things interesting.

Instead of stopping and resetting after 30 minutes we could change game types while still keeping the same teams and still fighting. It wouldn't be a cold switch from one game type to another, but would blend some how. For instance, CTF for the first 30 minutes. At the end of the 30 minutes the flags turn into points and it goes to 1 hit scores. Flags would count for a set number of points. E.G. Team 1 has 3 flags, team 2 has 2 flags. Each flag counts for 5 points, so at the end of 30 minutes Team 1 leads 15 to 10. A way to mix this up even more is to award different values to different flags. For instance, neutral flags could be worth 3 points, but stealing a flag from an enemy base counts for 6. Under these conditions fighting would only grow more intense once the neutral flags were all taken back to bases.

Another way of mixing things up would be to designate specific players with certain powers. If the SEALs make a hit on Rob then they get to choose one of us to downgrade weapons from a CPS to an XP or BBT for instance. The same would apply if we hit Scott or whoever is designated. This could last for a set amount of minutes, similar to a power play in hockey.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby SEAL » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:38 pm

^I actually wanted to do something like that at Downpour, but never got the chance due to low numbers and bad weather. It would've basically been four different games but without breaks in the action, and the scoring would carry over. Not sure about designating "powers" to certain people, but I guess it's something different.

Regarding long rounds, I definitely understand CA99's take, but I think the whole key here is setup. I admit the first OHK round at Downpour this year was rather poorly set up; we only had like 6 people, we used practically the whole park, and only allowed like 45 minutes to find each other. Long rounds need to be designed well, taking into account the amount of people and the nature of the battleground. I agree that half an hour is usually too short (unless it's a close-quarters round like in the factory); most of the rounds should be at least an hour or so.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:45 pm

Some good games on Battlefield can take close to an hour, but when you don't have the ability to teleport to spawn locations, along with completely different gameplay styles, we need more time than that. 30 mins to 1 hour is good for more casual rounds. But as mentioned, it all depends on setup.

Transitioning from one objective to another, or otherwise changing objectives mid-game requires good planning. Unfortunately, there's no good notification mechanism for players, unless everyone runs a loud stopwatch. Some of this type of stuff requires referees which we don't have.

Anyway, sounds like we'll have a high player count for Frozen Fury (than usual). What it comes down to now is making for quicker transitions between rounds.

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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby marauder » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:50 am

If you are fighting in close proximity to each other you only need one person with a watch. Or you could have one person from each team just to ensure that someone isn't ending the battle early in order to achieve victory. The places we will be fighting next month look like they'll ensure being able to use just 1 or 2 watches since we won't be all over the place.

If you set up things good in the beginning and at least 1 person on each team knows where to refill then we shouldn't have issues with set up times.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby DX » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:19 pm

Teams probably won't be set until I know exactly who is coming for sure.

Length of the rounds has purposefully been left unset, as I need to get a better idea of how long things will take. There's a lot of unavoidable setup time (the drive, the walk in, refilling, flags and bases. I am going to map out where to place these objects in advance and I'd like to give everyone info on what and where so there are no surprises concerning starting areas, refill spots, boundaries, etc. To minimize equipment, the Factory rounds are designed to be played with one class of blaster, so you don't need to worry about bringing different types of guns out of the cars. We will also need everyone to carry the extra water. I'd like to refill inside as much as possible and avoid going out to refill at all costs (after Moab's first round, I just don't trust you guys to not get us caught :p ).

As for longer rounds, I've always said that game design is the key. The rules, boundaries, etc need to naturally provoke battles. You also already know how I feel about those types of rounds. We may say that we want them, but from what I've observed in combat over the course of 10 or so community wars vs 22 long-form wars is that surprisingly few are prepared to do it. If you guys want that kind of warfare, you need to prove that you can handle it - mentally, physically, tactically, strategically. It is war.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:58 pm

Less than two weeks to go! Let's do this!

Fingers crossed that Spirit Airlines' limited footspace won't cripple my ability to dodge when I get there.

Anyone who needs to update on their RSVP status should do so now. By that, I mean all the maybe's who haven't been to any community wars anyway.

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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby marauder » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 am

I'm really looking forward to this. Not sure what else there is to say. I hope the weather holds up, but hey, I'll fight under any condition.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby DX » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:10 pm

The weather forecast is trending average now, which is an improvement from before. It was going to be in the 30s, now mid 40s. The war could be anywhere from 75 to -3, sunny or snowy, so pack for all-weather as usual. It bottomed out at 12 last morning with flurries and 38 mph winds, but Wed is going to be 56 with heavy rain and wind. It really could be anything.
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Re: Frozen Fury 2013, NY/CT Epic Fall Water War

Postby HBWW » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:20 pm

I'd say it's highly unlikely to hit record highs at this season (especially at this point), but that's the pessimist in me. =p There's always the small chance that the weather could turn strange in our favor.


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