Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Discussion of past, present, and future water war events.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Thu May 09, 2013 4:07 pm

CA99 wrote:SSLF is vastly outnumbered in the rivalries, especially if Black Six and/or I don't show. Ruh oh.
Don't worry, you can barrow a few of my friends if you want. :P They usually don't die more then 20 times per round. To be perfectly honest though, we could just not have the rivalry for this war. Even if everyone shows up, you guys would be outnumbered 8-4! And to be honest, there is still a few more people I could still ask (and those are just the people I know that are over 14. If this was a soakfest, you'd have a small army of 12 year olds to deal with!)
Poseidon2000 wrote:I'm in.
Does this mean that you want to come or that you can come? I just want to know whether I should put you down as coming or a maybe.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by Poseidon2000 » Thu May 09, 2013 8:07 pm

95 percent chance, and i can come, just if im willing to, and i am.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by marauder » Thu May 09, 2013 8:39 pm

If it was DX alone vs your whole team, I would still bet on DX.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by Poseidon2000 » Thu May 09, 2013 8:49 pm

and you would lose that bet.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Thu May 09, 2013 10:03 pm

To be honest, I think he would win simply because of the number of targets. With a respown time of one minute, we could kill him at most once a minute , but he could get around 8 kills a minute - one for each person on our team. Mind you, I doubt even DX is that good, but if he would probably win simply because we wouldn't have enough targets to shoot at.

At this point, does it make sense to do a rivalry? I guess maybe this could be payback for North Carolina where the SEALs were outnumbered. What do you guys think?

Oh, and is everyone planning on staying at my house? I ask because I just want to make sure I have the space. I can probably fit 4 (2/3 person) tents in the backyard. There is enough space for probably 6 or seven, but those spots aren't as flat. Ether way I am probably going to have to go back there and check for rocks and maybe rearrange some dirt a little (my mom dumps dirt from her garden back there, so there are lumps in places). I think I will leave the leaves as they will create a softer surface. Also, is there anyone who would rather sleep in my house? We have two couches and a Lazyboy recliner. Someone can always have my bed as I will probably camp out.
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Alex: "But the stream is cold." Me: "It's fine, my feet really hurt, now they're numb!"

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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by marauder » Thu May 09, 2013 10:13 pm

You outnumbered us 4 to 3 in the morning, then it was 4 v 4 for several battles. You were only outnumbered 2 rounds, and that was by 1 person.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by HBWW » Thu May 09, 2013 10:53 pm

Eh, we have plenty of time for rivalry rounds anyway, as well as time to decide whether we want to play them. =p

Yes to the house. Anywhere nice and comfy, I like. Not great at sleeping on the floor but if I have to I will. (Of course, this is still assuming I can make it lol.)
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by DX » Thu May 09, 2013 10:57 pm

Frozen Fury was essentially 2 on 4, but worse. Due to Ben hiding up high and Ben's nephews pumping their guns 3 times, the stage battle was pretty much 1 on 3.

I don't particularly care either way, although I will say that fighting significantly outnumbered plays out in a far more boring way than a little outnumbered. Without large areas of concealment, there are very few strategies. I'm perfectly willing to go 1 on X or 2 on X, but I think you'd have more fun if we balance out the teams in both skill and numbers. The rivalry rounds are fun, but they lack the intensity of the rounds like CTF at Downpour 2011 or OHK at Hydropoc where the teams were split as evenly as possible. Those rounds were challenging in a non-frustrating way. The rivalry has usually been uneven in one way or another and the teams constantly change. This is not so much of a problem with yours as you have 3 brothers, but the only consistent teammate I have is Ben and every other player has changed.

If we do rivalry teams next season, things need to change because it's not producing the level of gameplay that I'd like to see. Perhaps smaller groups of people (like 2-3) who fight as a unit, but may switch teams depending on the turnout for a given war. For example, Ben and I or Nick and I fight naturally together, so we pair and create a small unit. When there is a rivalry round, we fight together on the same team, but who else is on that team changes due to balance needs. Thus, each rivalry round is better balanced than our current setup and the gameplay should be tougher and more intense. My 2 cents.

I also don't care either way for camping or sleeping in the house. I've open air camped in 32 degrees in Maine so I'll do whatever.

I definitely want to have naval warfare at this war because of its unique island properties. That, and they have an endless rack of canoes and kayaks. Bring your piston pumpers.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by marauder » Fri May 10, 2013 12:45 am

Rob's comments made me think of a good question. Are uneven or even games more fun?

What rounds did you like the most?

OHK Downpour '11
Advantage: firepower. Disadvantage: numbers

CTF Downpour '11
Disadvantage: numbers - 5 to 4, but Jack was barefoot in the swamp most of the battle so it was more like 5 to 3.

Thunder Gulch Downpour '11
Advantages: firepower, skill

OHS @Night Hydropoc
very even

Chaos MOAB
Advantage: terrain knowledge. Disadvantages: firepower, numbers

CTF MOAB
Advantage: numbers. Disadvantage?: 3 new players


This is a complex question to answer. I can think of advantages or disadvantages for all but one of the above rounds. It is apparent that equality all the way around (skill, numbers, firepower, etc.) is not the biggest determining factor for me in whether or not a round will become epic.

Quality of battlefield seems to be a more deciding factor. Note that the Hydropoc 1hk round was possibly the most evenly matched round ever, and even had an epic ending, but didn't make my list of favorite rounds. That round was amazing, but I'd have to put it in my second tier. The field of battle was rather blasé and there were just as much standing around and standoffs as there were tactical movements and sweet kills. We were destroyed in the points column in every single battle played at Long Beach, but due to the amazing location I'd also have to put some of those rounds into my second best tier.

That doesn't mean that I don't count out balance altogether. Thunder Gulch was one of my favorite rounds, but I would highly doubt if Scott would say the same. Similarly, Suicide Hill @ Hydropoc was not great fun for me, and Jack and Will liked it even less than I did, but I'm sure the opposition loved it. We want rounds that are fun for both teams. Long Beach had that kind of potential due to the location, but that was negated for me due to how unbalanced my team was.

Things can be a lot of fun even when they are unbalanced - so long as it's not overwhelmingly so. I think the possibilities are greater when each team has a unique advantage. In its most basic form this can be represented with 2 particular matchups from Duelfest: 275 vs Colossus and 4100 vs Gorgon. The Colossus substantially outranged the 275, but the 275 had dual nozzles which made it more difficult to dodge. When each gun was played to its strength it just so happened to also be playing to the other's weakness, which made the round much more aggressive and dynamic.


This is definitely a subject that I'd like to discuss more in depth, as I feel it will help us polish up our gameplanning and also help us figure out where to go from here with the teams. If it receives a substantial amount of replies I'll be more than willing to split the topic.


I would absolutely love to fly in for this war, but it's just not going to happen. I just got back from New Orleans and this weekend we'll be heading back to NC for my brother's graduation. We're renting a mountain cabin. We're hoping to be able to visit Tony and Danny over Christmas break, so hopefully we can do another Frozen Fury, or something more low key/casual simply due to including my nephews.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Fri May 10, 2013 11:51 am

This is why I am probably going to outlaw the tree house for most of the rounds. We could use it for HLT if we play some of those rounds, but for most the OHK/OHS stuff it would be incredibly unfair. If the tree house was in the middle, it could work, but it is all the way at one end. Other then the treehouse each end has a pretty even playing field so which ever side started with the tree house would have a very large advantage. The treehouse is basically like being on the roof of the bathrooms at MOAB, except with the treehouse you have large walls to hide behind.
Before we start on Saturday, you guys can take a look at it, but in all the battles I've had, the treehouse has never been taken.

Does anyone know as of yet when they might be arriving? If everyone gets here before dark we could go tour the battlefield. Also, how many people are planning on staying until Monday? If enough people stay Monday morning we could have more battles before people have to go home. I'm just trying to get an idea of everyone's schedules so that I can plan with my local friends accordingly.

If we had another casual battle later in the year, where would it be held? I ask since I have a lot of younger friends (around the age of marauder's nephews) that could battle if it was held here.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by SEAL » Fri May 10, 2013 12:26 pm

scottthewaterwarrior wrote:To be honest, I think he would win simply because of the number of targets. With a respown time of one minute, we could kill him at most once a minute , but he could get around 8 kills a minute - one for each person on our team.
Scott!!! What are you talking about!? He wouldn't get 8 kills a minute because we would NOT be getting hit! Right? Right? :goofy:

Alright let's get serious now. Yeah, we weren't actually outnumbered that much in MOAB, even though I originally thought we'd be and planned accordingly. Personally, I do not like fighting outnumbered because it results in a lot of running and hiding; you know, defensive playing. That is not a recipe for an intense round. I don't really care if we do rival rounds or not; while I like the whole rival teams concept, I feel that it doesn't work extremely well when the team members are spread out over large distances (or even with our types of wars). It's much better for neighborhood-type warfare like the Ridgewood wars. I think there should be at least three (3) people on each side for official League rival team games or whatever. If you guys don't get that many, I'm fine with cancelling rival rounds. I don't care who I'm fighting against; I just want to fight, and fight intensely.

In response to marauder's post, these were my favorite rounds:

Downpour '11:
OHK (1st one) - We lost, but I still liked it because it was a long, no-boundaries (at least, none that ever come into play) round. I think the teams were actually quite even, and I would've liked to see how it would've turned out had the other team not ambushed us.
CTF - Being on defense, I saw a lot of action from enemy flag-runners. We had a small advantage in this round, but I don't think it was too much.
Thunder Gulch OHS - Another intense round; I feel like we would've been dead even had Scott and Firebird not taken Helixes into battle (should've gone with the Sneak Attack and whatever other piston gun we had). As it was, it was a little unbalanced, but not really (the scores would've been a lot closer if Scott didn't take it upon himself to go on assault...).

Hydropocalypse:
CTF - Once again, very intense. I think the teams were dead even then.
Naval OHS - This round was pretty horribly imbalanced, but I liked it just because it was fun being the naval artillery. It would've been more fun if my team were more organized though.

Downpour '12:
OHS (last round) - Was pretty imbalanced skill-wise, but it was still intense.

Frozen Fury:
All LBW rounds - Even if we had lost, the location was just too awesome not to make it on my list, even with the imbalance. Fighting there again wasn't quite as much fun, but that's because we didn't have as many people and a lot of our guns were experiencing problems.
OHS (long round) - It barely makes the list because of that island thing, but hey, it was a long round. That is one round that I feel would've gone better if the teams were more even.

MOAB:
"Crazy" OHS (perhaps we need a better name for that) - Come on, how could this not make the list? It was both long and intense. We had a bit of an advantage, but not much.
AP-only OHS - This was quite imbalanced, but in this case, it actually made it fun because it was so much of a challenge (and it was a long round). It's probably borderline though; I wouldn't want things to be any more imbalanced than this.


As you can probably tell, I like long, hardcore rounds and intense, action-packed rounds (that's what I'm shooting for at Downpour this year). I pretty much agree with marauder on this; things can be fun even when unbalanced, just as long as it's not tipped too far in one direction. Like I said, the AP-only battle at MOAB is as far imbalanced as I'd want things to be. As for "Suicide Hill", I didn't really like it that much. I was mostly standing there shooting at attackers, and getting annoyed when they didn't call hits and/or called a hit on me when it wasn't even close (though I think others had a bigger problem with this). I've decided that I don't like playing defense in HTL.

So yeah, I wouldn't have a problem not doing rival rounds. I know I wouldn't like it if it were just me and one or two others against your whole team. I'll probably arrive at the war sometime in the afternoon; not sure when yet, but probably around 4:00 or so. I'm going to leave on Monday morning, but I might have time for a round or two in the morning if there are enough people sticking around. As for lodging, I'd rather just stay in a tent; I'm used to it and I always feel like I'm intruding if I stay in someone's house.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by HBWW » Fri May 10, 2013 3:54 pm

I actually didn't quite have any favorites at MOAB since it was all so new to me. The assault/defense round was fun, but could've been so much better with more liberal rules and more battlefield elements to offset the advantages/disadvantages created by such. I do like asymmetrical games in general as it gives both teams a chance to play the whole game, and I definitely think we should play more of them at Soakemore. In such games, having things be unfair is okay, as all players will get to try everything out. However, I tend to try to limit such inbalances to weaponry, battlefield, and rules/objectives. Unbalanced player skill is more complicated to deal with.

Chaos (that's the official name now of any gametype with water weaponry you have to pick up on the field, or at least that's what I'm designating it as) 1HS was interesting, but perhaps having both teams start on opposing ends of the field could help things out. On the other hand, I was really bad with that battlefield in general due to navigation difficulty and the thorns. I'm interested to see how Chaos would play out on an easier battlefield. (i.e. Legend Park woods; much more woods-n00b-friendly than St. John's woods.)

I'm thinking that battlefield sizes/areas do need their limits. We need fields that force teams to fight, and I could generally care less about that whole aspect of hunting and finding the opposing team after hour-long hike during the MOAB AP rivalry. It was great exercise, but actual combat is even better for that purpose.

Anyway, regarding what DX said about the whole rivalry system, this was one of my main concerns to begin with and thus why I was hesitant to pick a team, wanting to go as "mercenary" instead. If we encounter these team inbalances constantly, we may have to become more player focused and less team focused, although I do recognize the advantages and excitement that a rivalry brings. Secret projects being amongst the best of them!

Edit/Update: I didn't get the job, so my schedule should be free that weekend, but I do need to see how things go in the meanwhile. I will post back when I know my attendance status better.

Edit: Now it depends if dad can get the days off needed. If my family can't make it, I will consider flying solo again, but I dislike the cost and the severe limitations on the equipment I can bring.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by Black Six » Tue May 14, 2013 9:44 pm

So it looks like I'm going to be in Jersey that weekend and won't be able to make it. Sorry guys. :(
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Tue May 14, 2013 11:17 pm

Nuts, that is too bad! What are you going up there for? Oh well, maybe next year.

Anyway, that leaves us with 11 counting the maybes and a minimum of 8-9 (some might not stay the whole event). Should I try and invite some more local people? I still have a couple that might be able to handle it that I haven't asked yet.
It depends what everyone else wants, I don't want this to end up as "Scott and friends have a battle and some community members were there." I'm not about to let any friends come who wouldn't be up for running through the woods for several hours, but they aren't at the same level as most of us veterans ether.

I also PM'd Wetmonkey, but he hasn't replied yet and it has been a few days. Is he like really busy or something? He is never even on the boards anymore. It just feels kind of strange for one of the people who started this whole thing to just drop out.
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Alex: "But the stream is cold." Me: "It's fine, my feet really hurt, now they're numb!"

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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by SEAL » Wed May 15, 2013 9:02 am

We should ask Belisaurius. He lives pretty close by. Likely he'll be too busy, but you never know. Aside from that, there's the oncoming storm, but he doesn't seem like he's able to come to many wars.

Scott, can you send me your address? I need to figure out a route here. I'll likely shoot for 16:00 (or 4:00 PM) for my arrival time. I might end up getting there later though, as long trips always end up taking longer than expected.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by marauder » Wed May 15, 2013 9:40 am

If you're not doing rivalry rounds I'd definitely recommend inviting your local friends.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by HBWW » Wed May 15, 2013 2:33 pm

I'd say, go for as many participants as possible so long as they'll play. Community attendance may be limited, but I'm coming there for a good water war, not necessarily with community or skilled players only. Just avoid those friends who, well, you know who I'm talking about because I think most of us have had friends at water wars that we shouldn't have invited.

Also, who's interested in trying an Invasion/Rush style game? Details here: http://www.waterwar.net/site_wwn/board/ ... tml#p53246
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Wed May 15, 2013 8:59 pm

We can certainly try it, my wars are pretty low key so it normally comes down to what people want to do the day of. While I want to have a few more hard core OHS/OHK rounds, I think this war will probably work best with a more laid back stile then other community wars. I don't even remember the exact schedule for this war (it is on the fist post), I really just made that because it seamed like others wanted me to have a plan. Even in past wars, since when have things ever gone to plan? I think I will edit it down so that most of the time can be used for anything and just leave a few set things (like the naval war).

As far as gametypes I want to play, I really want to play Conquest and HTL D-day stile. I would also like to have a long OHS round at Carderock, but beyond that I really don't care what we do.

I will go ahead and ask some more people if they can come. Sycamore island will probably have the most people since it won't be as intense as Carderock (simply because of the size). I will probably ask a few people for Saturday (the island day) who couldn't handle the more hard core rounds we will play at Carderock.
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by HBWW » Wed May 15, 2013 9:15 pm

We're in agreement on most of these games, it seems. Do you have a method for setting up Conquest control points and/or measuring score?
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Re: Soakemore! 2013 DC area water war

Post by scottthewaterwarrior » Wed May 15, 2013 9:37 pm

CA99 wrote:We're in agreement on most of these games, it seems. Do you have a method for setting up Conquest control points and/or measuring score?
Control points, yes, I have 10 one minute sand timers. Keeping score, not so much. I was thinking of just awarding points for kills and then say 5 or 10 points for each base your team controls at the end of the time. I was planning on having it be more like a OHS game where you could capture spawn points.

I have PMed everyone my address and phone number, please let me know if you didn't get it.
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Alex: "But the stream is cold." Me: "It's fine, my feet really hurt, now they're numb!"

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