Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

General questions and discussions on water warfare regarding tactics and strategies.

Shields?

Shields - Ok in all rounds, and I would use them
4
13%
Shields - Ok in all rounds, but would not use
2
6%
Shields - Ok in soakfests only, and I would use them
4
13%
Shields - Ok in soakfests only, but would not use
3
9%
Shields - Not ok
3
9%
Melee - Ok in all rounds, and I would use them
1
3%
Melee - Ok in all rounds, but would not use
2
6%
Melee - Ok in soakfests only, and I would use them
0
No votes
Melee - Ok in soakfests only, but would not use
5
16%
Melee - Not ok
8
25%
 
Total votes: 32

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marauder
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Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby marauder » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:51 pm

The oncoming storm and I were arguing about this over IM in a conversation that also involved such subjects and tanks and melee weapons like pool noodle swords. Do you use shields? Do you think they're a good idea or are they dumb?

Here's my opinion. I have no problem with shields being used in very casual fights, like at a pool party, or at the end of the day when everyone is cooling off with a soakfest at the community war. I would not want people to use shields in any kind of serious round. It just seems like it's cheating if you're using any kind of armor or using anything other than your gun or the battlefield itself to block shots. I mean, while we are at it, if shields are ok, why not use full waterproof body armor made out of a trash bag? I just think shields are dumb and would encourage the type of watergun fights I would not want to play. For example, the oncoming storm mentioned teams or squads lining up in formation with shields to block the water. Sure, that might block the opposing teams shots - but is that fun? Well, if it is to you, by all means, you have the right to enjoy that, but I do not want to play any kind of game like that.

As for melee weapons, I would much rather have a bucket or waterballoons. Pool noodles would be fun - in a pool, but that's it. I also think that melee weapons could be a lot more dangerous than what we might think. I have been in a few water wars where shields and melee weapons were allowed. There was way too much physical contact involved for my liking.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby atvan » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:00 pm

I can see shield being fun for certain gametypes, such as attackers getting a limited number for certain assault games. They are quite limiting, especially because we have to pump.

I see melee as being used as it is in airsoft or barrel taps in nerf- something small that saves the shot at close range. Here, it would be for tactical rather than safety reasons. A pool noodle sounds a bit rediculous- anything larger than a large knife would be excessive.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby isoaker » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:07 am

To me, while I understand why some may like the idea of a melee water-based weapon, as soon as you're hitting someone with something beyond water or water balloons, you end up opening up the possibility for someone to get hit (even if only by accident) by something harder than the foam/sponge melee weapon (e.g. someone's hand/arm making contact during the attack).

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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby SEAL » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:33 am

Shields are just plain annoying. They might not necessarily block everything, but when people use shields they tend to claim that they blocked any shots fired at them, even if the shot actually hit them. I've seen a few people do this with guns, which is one of the reasons why I'm thinking it might be a good idea to make gun hits count (unless the gun is away from the user's body) in future wars (though it's not a really big problem). But there's a reason that shields are banned in most serious wars (they're okay in soakfests where it doesn't matter).

I don't really mind the idea of melee weapons, and I've thought about using them in the past (it's not like you would be hitting someone really hard with one), but there's just no reason to have them in my opinion. I have almost never been close enough to an enemy to hit them with a sponge sword, and even if I was I wouldn't waste time pulling one out; I'd just shoot the person.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby HBWW » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:30 am

Shields may need regulations if/when allowed for serious games, although they have been used in my backyard wars. The result is often humorous, and they are detrimental to mobility and pumping, which makes them reasonably balanced. We've even used tarps as shields, although they have their own disadvantages too, such as lack of visibility. I haven't used or been in games where very cheap shields were used. Most of the time, the mobility and visibility disadvantages are enough to prevent such shields from becoming useful.

Melee attacks that don't soak (i.e. water balloons on a stick, water bottle splash attacks, etc.) are never acceptable, which I think anyone with an ounce of common sense could figure out from the term "water warfare." Attacks that soak but require physical contact are in a grey zone: they're not effective though, so there's no reason to allow then at the risk of safety.

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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby the oncoming storm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:25 pm

It's seems that while controversial both are allowed within reason, I am responsible and would avoid causing bodily harm with a melee weapon if/when I come to a Community war.

(I need to make a prototype melee sword for testing but still need sponges)
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby HBWW » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:03 pm

I think almost all of us can agree that there is an unspoken ban on all melee attacks at community wars. I know that if I was ever hit with a foam sword in a 1HS/1HK game, and the attacker tried to get me to count it as a hit, I would just grab a water balloon and hardball it at the sucker.

If the foam sword is soaked, you'll still need to land about 50 hits with it before it can reach the amount of water for a kill.

As for shields, I'm up for whatever. It seems that most people prefer a straight-up ban on all shields for non-soakfest games, although if people want to draft rules for what shields are acceptable (i.e. A clear, plastic tarp with holes cut in it for pumping a blaster would not be acceptable for blocking hits.), I'd be up for that too.

Agreed with SEAL that people with shields have cheated before. Happened in 2008 in a game against a former team lead by a former iSoaker member. I do like being able to block, but I'm the only one who currently does that in community wars. It's not as effective as good footwork though, and considering some of us don't even count hits near the feet, trying to get people to count gun hits won't work either.

There's only one or two times I'd ever make an exception for foam pool noodles, and that is for zombies/infection and my magic hammer gametype. However, I'd strongly prefer that the infected use weak water weaponry instead.

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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby the oncoming storm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:15 pm

Sponge sword not foam sword, Sponge swords could cause a kill with just one hit, I made a fist sized hit on myself without even pushing on the sponge very hard just to test.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby DX » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:06 pm

The reason I don't count low hits, and why I don't think anyone should, is because you can't verify them. Shoes and socks get wet by nature in a water war, whether it be dripping from your own gun, wet grass, wet leaves, enemy droplets and spray from streams at the edge of their range, etc. Even on dry white shoes, it's hard to see water because they are designed to repel light amounts of it. Ideally, I'd like to extend this up to the knees because the CPS 2000 hits people all the time below the knees - I don't call those, and they don't call those, so over time it's become not a hit.

Also, keep in mind that fist sized is not intended to be for every hit. Fist sized is used to settle disputes over splatter damage and broken up streams. A direct shot from a stream that stays together is usually a hit (level or angled), no matter how large, because otherwise very few guns would get any hits. It's still kind of situational and subjective, but has worked so far.

Examples:

I angle a shot at Sam with a CPS 2000, he is close enough that the whole thing falls on him. Despite not necessarily being fist-sized damage, it's definitely a hit.
I take a level shot at Trey with an XP 150, which lands right on him. Despite never being fist-sized damage, it's definitely a hit.
I angle a shot at Scott with a CPS 2000, it goes through leaves on the way and breaks up. Scott looks at himself for fist-sized damage, does not find any. It's definitely not a hit.
I take a level shot at Ben with a Gorgon 10x, it breaks up on the way in and kind of gets him. Ben looks at himself for fist-sized damage, does not find any. It's definitely not a hit.
I shoot at Keith repeatedly with a Colossus, eventually getting enough water on him to call for a check. Keith looks at himself for fist-sized damage, and does find a spot. Despite it not being capable of fist-sized damage in one shot alone, it's definitely a hit.

It's really tough to write hit rules in a way that is easily explained, this is how it's worked out in practice.

So, melee would not need to do fist-sized damage,(you can easily tell when you've been whacked with a sword) but it would need to deliver enough water to be an acceptable weapon. At a certain point, you're just whacking someone and not soaking them.

Some soakers with big streams have so much wrap-around that I no longer block unless there's no other way (like in a canoe trying to land). Dodging is just better.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby marauder » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:11 pm

Duxburian wrote:So, melee would not need to do fist-sized damage,(you can easily tell when you've been whacked with a sword).


:lol: I just cracked up really big when I read that line. I think melee weapons would be kind of cool in a pool fight. I mean I have had several pool noodle fights, it was pretty cool - but that's in a pool and you're not playing games where if you're hit you're out. I just don't care for melee weapons in a hit based game, and I really don't want them in a soakfest outside of a pool. We do not do medieval LARP here. Besides, it would be much more satisfying to hit someone with a bucket or a waterballoon.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby the oncoming storm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:19 pm

Yeah I tend towards a direct hit regardless, My games can rack up huge scores like 33-27 in just the time it takes for an avenger to run dry. (I need to master long ranges cause Water Warriors guns score way to many kills on my 300)
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby Nemesis » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:00 pm

Well, one of my friends who comes over for wars often almost always arms himself with a Collosus and this saucer sled that I put straps on which is used as a shield. Even though the Collosus is underpowered compared to everyone elses guns, he is quite a valuable asset, partially because he is fast and has experience, but mostly because of the shield. He is very good at using it and his best game is wasting the other team's water/ destracting them while someone else goes in for some kills. He is also great in a firefight. He is the only one with a shield, which makes our battles unique. I'm not quite sure how it would turn out if everyone had a shield, but having him and his signature shield is definately fun and adds variety to an already very fun game.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby scottthewaterwarrior » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:53 pm

My stand on shield is that they are fine for soakfests, but not really anything else. I might allow it in some other battle though, depending on the shield (like if it was arm mounted and rather small). For the most part though I just don't find shields that useful. Unless you have something the size of a trash can lid (which would be cheating and to hard to pump with besides), it would be to hard to block with. I have made several blocks with my gun, though I have yet to get a single one where I actually was trying to do it. It was pure luck that the gun happened to get in the way and I would have much rather tried to dodge the shot if I had the time.
I normally count hits in the legs, but not so much in the shoes, if for no other reason than I really can't tell when I get hit there.

As for melee weapons, they are just purely impractical. Not to even go into the chance to injure someone, why hit someone when you can just shoot them instead? The only time I ever got close enough to hit someone with a pool noodle or other foam object was in the theater round at frozen furry. Even then, it was a lot faster to just pull the triggers on my Crickets then it would have been to bring a foam sward up to bare. If someone wants to bring a knife to a gunfight, I'd say let them, but they'd be better off with a Thunderstorm.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:14 pm

If someone wants to bring a knife to a gunfight, I'd say let them, but they'd be better off with a Thunderstorm.


I doubt it, in a melee vs thunderstorm duel you could go all Jedi on that puny stream.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby Nemesis » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Well... I would honestly take a sponge over a Thunderstorm. I could just throw the sponge.
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby mr. dude » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:01 pm

Being the huge LotR fan that I am, I've thought many times about melee weapons and how awesome they would be. I haven't yet thought of a way to make them worth it, but if one day there is a mechanism that allows them to dish out enough water without hurting someone, I don't see any reason to ban them. Swordfights are really cool, and they'd add a new element to the game.

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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby soakinader » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:36 pm

I don't know about swordfights. If I am close enough to melee I would rather shoot point blank with my gun then drop if for some manner of stick.
If my gun was empty, what am I doing with a sword in a water gun fight? I just can't see a situation where I would be glad that I brought a melee stick than another gun, a bottle, or a water bomb. Maybe if you go mano-en-mano with another melee fighter, but getting whacked with a pool noodle or a foam sword can really hurt sometimes.
As for shields, I don't know. The point is to get wet, and water finds a way.
I can see a sponge sword being a cool weapon, maybe with a sheath full of water? I can also see a sword that would squirt water as it swings...
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby the oncoming storm » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:05 pm

Way too much time sponges and a dowel = "Knight's Fury" my new 3' long sponge sword

also the polling results

Shields pass 13 to 3 (soakfests only)
Melee pass 8 to 5 (soakfests only)
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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby HBWW » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:09 am

After some thought and a little more community war exp, I'd like to revisit this thread.

Shields: A serious, but well regulated game with shields could work. Shields would've been potential useful for balancing in favor of the attackers on Soakemore's beach landing. I still stand by having regulations: the shield must be solid and separate; nothing that works like a tarp, garbage bag, etc. is allowed. All water resistant clothing is for protection from cold only. Also, to deter cheating, a simple rule follows: if any shooter who calls (with honor and visual certainty) a hit on a shield user, the rules should favor the shooter instead of the shield user in terms of who was hit. I guess this is where the first sized hit check comes in.

I prefer a wholesale ban on physical contact of any kind and will not call any hits from a sponge or sponge sword in any standard water war. Still open to the one exception of zombie-themed games.

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Re: Shields and melee weapons - yes or no?

Postby the oncoming storm » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:38 am

considering the extreme dodging skills a sword user would need to possibly score a hit on a Medium or Heavy weapon (to large a stream to deflect) in open battle it's more for close quarters like dense woods or the factory rounds at Frozen Fury 2013 where heavy weapons would be a hindrance
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