Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Water blaster concepts and dream designs for water guns and related equipment.
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Jawley
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Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby Jawley » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:06 pm

So I was just thinking about a new pressurized water gun, and I thought of the crossbows where a crank handle was attached to wind back the string and then detached after. I had an idea where there would be a pump body with a lever to increase force and make pumping easier (Maybe a crank handle too, but that would be hard to make) which a "barrel" would be attached to. This barrel would be more of the actual gun, where its basically two ball valves on either end of a pipe and a piston cup wall in between, sort of like Ben's supercannon II. You would open the first valve and fill the pipe with water, pushing the wall down, and then close it. Then, you would flip it and attach it to the pump (Probably with those threaded PVC adapters) and open the other valve which, if done properly, would be the other end opposite of the side you filled with water. Pump in the air, and then close the valve and detach it so you have your pressurized container. Since you could detach the pump, (And also because the PC/Reservoir is cheap and easy to make)you could just have a bunch of these pre pressurized pipe-gun thingies where you could pull one out, fire it off, and then pull out another.

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the oncoming storm
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby the oncoming storm » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:27 pm

your idea is interesting but sealing the pump against the "pipe blasters" would be problematic, other than that it makes sense.
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Jawley
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby Jawley » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:50 pm

Are threaded couplings leaky or something? I don't have much experience with them, I was thinking of something like a quick-change barrel where you take the empty reservoir barrel off and screw in a new one.

Also, I remember reading a thread about air pressure in PVC pipe, and how schedule 40 or 80 is bad or something. According to this http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-c ... d_796.html website, schedule 80 1" PVC pipe can take 378 PSI (although its bursting pressure is much higher. Is 378 PSI powerful enough (I'm not good with air pressure), and what can I do to make the pipe safer with air pressure? I would buy metal parts, but I'm planning to make a bunch of these pipe blaster barrels with varying nozzles.

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isoaker
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby isoaker » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:30 pm

Thanks for sharing your idea, Jawley!

In a sense, your water blaster idea really reminds me of the old Super soaker SC Triple Charge (and Triple Play - not linked). In these blasters, the swappable reservoirs could be pre-charged from a hose and, when swapped onto the blaster component, release a stream right away without any additional pumping.

Could make for a fun play pattern, though am not sure whether others will be as enthused about the idea of carrying around additional parts, even if pre-pressurized. Swapping of parts still takes time that can be accomplished well with a well-designed pump system, too.

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Jawley
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby Jawley » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:30 pm

Thanks! I was expecting everyone to really dislike the idea.

I feel like having a bunch of mini-pipe blasters would help with battle flexibility because you could have one with a long-range nozzle, a heavier short range nozzle, and a shotgun-style spread of streams that have about 5 nozzles that spread apart. You could probably even have one with no nozzle and just the ball valve to simply dump water on someone.

I think I'll start gradually working on this until summer, since I have school and can't dedicate tons of time to making this.

Oh, and what do you think of the lever pump idea? Would it be too hard to make/slows down the pressurization too much in exchange for less effort?
I don't have too much experience making with air powered guns, since I'm a huge noob.

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DX
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby DX » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:14 pm

It would be far more practical to swap out nozzles as opposed to blaster bodies, pumps, or pressure chambers. Nozzles can be quickly threaded on and off adapters. Speed is key because no one is going to give you time or space to swap things out, they will rush and you will get soaked. If you are switching nozzles, at least you can still defend yourself during that process. Swapping just about anything else leaves you totally vulnerable to rushing.

Pressurized air in PVC pipe at typical water gun pressures is fine. Just keep in mind that the printed pressure rating on PVC is for water pressure. You won't find an air rating, as it's against plumbing codes to even test PVC systems with air. It also loses considerable strength in hot and cold conditions. Personally, I divide the printed rating by at least half for air at 73 degrees. The further the temperature is away from 73, the more I divide the rating by. Obviously, read the directions on PVC cement and always use primer even if it seems unnecessary.

A lever pump is interesting, but it would need to outperform regular front-mounted pumps in order to be useful. Also note that if you do a piston cup design like SCII, you may need a way of venting the air on the backside and pushing the cap back to the front position. You could use a spring, but said spring would need to be very strong and it will rust. You may have more success with McMaster LRT, but that is an all-water pressure system, so adjust the pump accordingly.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Jawley
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby Jawley » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:53 pm

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

For the last bit about the spring and venting the air, since the PC is able to be unattached, couldn't I just fill it normally with water and the weight would just push the piston cup down (so I wouldn't need a spring)? Also, I don't really understand why I would need to vent the air. Could you explain that part?

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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby DX » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:11 am

Depending on the tightness of your seal, the weight of water alone might not actually move the piston anywhere. Venting is for if you want to pre-pressurize the air side of the piston for greater power - you'll need to be able to depressurize it when you're done using the soaker (you can just use a schrader valve for this and push the pin).
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby the oncoming storm » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:53 am

I have been fixated on the lever pump concept for a few days and have come to see just how big an advantage it is. Goats foot lever crossbows can span bows of of up to 450lbs with just one arm. Meanwhile on a much smaller scale a lever action pump could easily move 7oz per stroke without having to place it on the ground. More shockingly if you weren't against placing it on the ground pump volumes could even go as high as 18oz practically (with a ridiculously massive 2.5" pump) and still requiring only 46lbs of input force to do so.
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Jawley
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby Jawley » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:31 pm

I was thinking about it too, but there's a problem of how big of a frame you need to make the lever push the pump handle. It's going to take me a few days to really compact the lever pump design before I start, or else I'd pay like $50 for the framework alone.

EDIT: do a couple of piston cups work in place of o-rings? I feel like getting the o-rings to fit the diameter exactly would be a hassle.

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DX
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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby DX » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:57 pm

Dual piston cups are pretty much the standard...but be warned that they can warp. I mean, the seal will warp or wear out regardless, but piston cups are expensive and O-rings are cheap. You should explore skirt seals, U cups, and just about any rubber seal, and decide based on what's the most durable. Water pressure is extremely unforgiving, so the piston must be strong, not just seal perfectly. I think that skirt seals provide the best quality seal...but they also wear out the fastest. I'd still experiment with O-rings first, as they have the best compromise of price, seal quality, and durability. If you can't get a perfect seal with them, then move on to the other options.
marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby HBWW » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:20 pm

The real problem will be getting the inner pipe wall to seal, which is sometimes in the worse shape possible to seal anything. If the wall is straight, it'll work, but some pipes undergo lower manufacturing standards, and the inner wall ripples instead. The rippling will make any seal very difficult to work out.

I've worked with both piston cups and O-rings on PVC "capsules". I haven't seen piston cups warp, but I did notice that the O-rings seem to seal better anyway. Both leaked though, so there's no clear solution.

I'm not sure how a lever benefits, as. opposed to simply using different pump lengths and diameters. I'd have to research if I had time, I guess.

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Re: Lever pumps/detachable pressure systems

Postby the oncoming storm » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:06 pm

CA99 a lever gives you a superior mechanical advantage and allows a smaller input force to generate a massive output force. EG the 18oz pump I theorized needing only 46 lbs of force to use on a lever action pump, would otherwise require an almost superhuman 230 pounds of force pressing it in to reach the same 50psi.

and as Dualfest's Colossus vs XP 150 round told us is that all else being roughly equal pump volume dominates.
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